Author Topic: A brief history of Hapkido  (Read 1666 times)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 12:16:19 PM »
Howard,

All tai chi chuan has chin na.  However, 90% of those doing "tai chi" do it for fun and health and know little or nothing about practical application.

I personally believe that all martial technique is the "same" given the commonality of two arms and two legs.  It is "different" and "special" given the "mind" of the practitioner.  The simple to the complex.  The complex back to the simple...repeating the spiral.  As such, I believe that the "chin na" qi/ki technique is an extention of where the mind can take us.

The parameters, always being the "honing" of the technique and the actual result in "testing".

Best,
Joseph



Offline Bluecrab

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 12:07:20 PM »
Joseph,

Thanks for the clips. They're very interesting.

Would I be correct to infer that there is some element of Chin Na in what you do?

I'm familiar with a few of the accupressure points you were attacking in the clip. I'm pretty sensitive to having accupressure points activated on me.

Thanks again.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 09:43:59 PM »
Hi Howard,

Here are two tapes of me giving a seminar:

Push Hands: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

Pressure Points Internal/Cavity Strikes vs. Percussive/External striking:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YM5iinV6E

This will give you an idea of what I practice.   

Best,
Joseph

Offline Bluecrab

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2008, 06:56:33 PM »
Hi, Joseph,

Please call me Howard.  ;)

I don't take your post as an attack on anything at all. You've been very gracious in this discussion, which is why I've been conversing with you. It's a pleasure.

Don't have a lot of time right now, but I'd like to say this... if, when you refer to a younger Lim, and you're referring to that grainy, kind of green-and-white clip on the Jungkikwan website that has very brief footage of Choi, I have to tell you that the guy doing all of the fancy high kicks and kipups is not Lim. He looks like him, but it's somebody else.

As for Jungki Hapkido being an internal art... well, that, of course, depends on what you mean by "internal". I typically think of a few Chinese arts when I think of internal arts. When I think of Daito-ryu, I do not think of an "internal" art in the sense that I understand that term. In my (granted, quite limited) experience, the aiki in Daito-ryu is almost completely physical. It is basically taking your attacker's balance subtly, then controlling and finishing him with your technique.

The same is largely true in Jungki Hapkido, although the techniques tend to be more direct.

I agree, Angier is pure finesse. But so is Lim when you experience his technique firsthand.

Would you mind if I ask you what art(s) you teach and study? If you'd rather not post that publicly, could you please PM me?

Thanks again for your time. I certainly appreciate it. This is turning into a very nice discussion.

Best regards, Howard
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2008, 04:55:51 PM »
Bluecrab,

In my observations, I tend to note how culture, society and social mores play a role in the shaping and re-shaping of physical technique.

The japanese sword is straight and direct.  The deep stances and straight line movements, IMHO reflect the changes of from the upright natural stances that were professed by the Okinawans.  Likewise, the high stances of the Koreans reflect their affinity to kicking.

As such, I see japanese written over Don Angier and korean written over the Takeda technique as expressed by Lim.

In the old tapes of Lim, I did not see a softness or an internal method.  Of course, he was younger then and much more muscular in nature.  Yet, I am sure with age he has softened. (Please do not take this as an attack.  I would love to see Lim's technique today.)

In Angier, I could see his finessee even as a younger man.  I would like to see more of him today.

I have practiced and taught martial arts for over 45 years.  (I mentioned this to qualify my observations.  Again, please don't take my "limited" observations as an attack on your linage or style.  I do appreciate the information you have graciously given me.)

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola   

Offline Bluecrab

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2008, 04:01:16 PM »
Hi, Joseph,

Actually, Karatekorner didn't shut down voluntarily. My understanding is that the website got hacked, and all of the content was destroyed.  :o

Hwarangdo's founder (Lee Joo Bang) seems to have had some seminar training with Choi, but as far as I know, his hapkido rank came from GM Ji. Lee Joo Bong is a physically gifted martial artist, but he has "embellished the truth", shall we say, over the years about the history of Hwarangdo. I see a lot of Chinese influence in both Hwarangdo and Kuk Sul Won, even though I think both organizations try to downplay that and revert to the "2,000 years old, developed by Korean monks in isolated caves" stuff. Their problem is that, as far as I know, there is no reliable historical evidence to support those claims.

Interesting, your comment about Angier's technique looking "Japanese", and Lim's looking "Korean". I don't see anything particularly Japanese or Korean in Mr Lim's technique... just extraordinary physical ability, especially for a man his age (I've been on the mat with him many times). I see definite Daito-ryu influences in his higher-level techniques. They're softer than the Jungkikwan basics, but no less effective. Just on a different level. The basic Jungkikwan techniques tend to be short and to the point.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2008, 02:26:26 PM »
Bluecrab,

yes, I was a member.  Though, only for a brief time before you shut down.

Again if I may ask, what is your opinion about Hwa rang do and the other outshoots that claim to be originated from "old korean linage"?  Do you believe they all come from Choi?

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter.  Though, it gives "background" to the "reality" of the methods.  Certainly, I see a "japaneseness" to Angier's technique vs. the "koreanness" in Lim's technique.  In any event, what is important is the "effectiveness".  I agree, Angier has "something".

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Offline Bluecrab

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2008, 02:06:21 PM »
Joseph,

Apparently, Mr. Angier named a successor in January 2005:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6729&sid=1220740fbf8687eabb2e33bc79b2fea0

I don't know what Mr. Angier's current role in the ryu is.

I guess anybody who shows up on youtube will attract detractors - all too often young, uninformed loudmouths who have no idea what they're talking about (and can't write intelligible English). As someone with experience in the type of aikijujutsu techniques you see in that old clip, I can tell you that what Mr. Angier is doing is very effective. It's impossible to convey with words alone, you have to feel it. One thing you can see from the clip is the great importance of timing (with respect to meeting the incoming attack) in executing the techniques. Timing often determines what type of technique you need to use.

GM Ji is directly or indirectly responsible for probably 95%, if not more, of the hapkido schools out there, in that that proportion of schools can trace their lineage to him or one of his direct students. The Jungkikwan is one of the very few that does not have a link to GM Ji. That's why we don't do his kicking techniques - he did not learn his kicking repertoire from Choi. We don't have the important philosophical component that Sin Moo has, either. Choi clearly learned a jutsu rather than a do in Japan. The jutsu arts focused on effective techniques for combat, both armed and unarmed.

Choi's art did not use the sword directly, although we have techniques that derive from sword unarmed defenses. Choi taught techniques using a short stick that's called a dan bong in Korean. Its use is common in traditional jujutsu styles. Sometimes it's referred to as the Yawara stick. Choi also taught techniques using a belt or rope, and throwing sharp pieces of glass and metal.

Comparing Choi's use of weapons to Takeda's would be an interesting line of research. Takeda was a well-known sword master, but did not learn the sword directly in Daito-ryu. His main bases in the sword were an art called Ono Ha Itto-ryu. which he began learning as a boy, and Jikishinkage-ryu.

If you've visited the Jungkikwan website, you probably saw that GM Lim teaches a sword art of his own creation called Cheong Seok Kuhapdo. CSK is very heavily influenced by the Yamauchi-ha branch of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. GM Lim's primary teacher is the current soke of that ryu-ha.

Thanks for your questions, and welcome to the forum, btw. Were you a member of the old Karatekorner board too?
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2008, 11:42:05 AM »
Bluecrab,

Yes, I found the same tape.  I would like to see him move now.  It looks like he also has a lot of detractors.  I found his theory and concept to be quite compelling.

I also watched several tapes from your korean linage.  It was interesting to see the divergence adding the kicking in Soo Moo Hapkido as brought about by Ji Han Jae.  I met him when he had a school in Daly City (SF Bay Area).  Of course, we all remember Ji Han Jae from the Bruce Lee movie.

If I may ask, did Choi's method also use sword, bo and jo?  In Ueshiba's aikido most seem to still use said weapons?  As such, did Takeda transfer weapons knowledge to Choi?

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Offline Bluecrab

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2008, 11:17:13 AM »
Hi, all, thanks... glad you found the info useful.

Joseph, no, I've never trained with Angier sensei nor any of his direct students. I just stumbled across this clip on youtube and was immediately impressed with the similarities between several of the techniques shown, corresponding techniques in our hapkido kwan and corresponding Daito-ryu techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A

His ryu seems to maintain a very low profile, which is typical for koryu-type arts. As far as I know, the group is concentrated in southern California.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2008, 10:47:22 AM »
Bluecrab,

Thank you for posting.  It gave me a much better understanding of the divisions in hapkido. 

I looked up tapes on several of the proponents you listed.  It was quite startling to see the evolution and divisions. 

I am curious about Don Angier.  Did you get the opportunity to study with him?

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva arriola

Offline Gi

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2008, 06:11:45 AM »
That was very interesting - Thanks

Offline supergroup7

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Re: A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 01:14:51 PM »
Thank you Bluecrab. Thank you very much.
Just doin' my best.

Offline Bluecrab

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A brief history of Hapkido
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 11:25:35 AM »
Some time ago, I posted this on the old forum (RIP) in response to a request from a fellow member. Fortunately, I created the post in Word and saved it on my computer. So, I'm posting it here on the new forum so that people can have an idea of what Hapkido is and where it comes from.

Regards, Howard

**********************************************************

A brief history of Hapkido for our members

Choi Yong Sul was a Korean who was born in either 1899 or 1904, depending on which source you choose to believe. He was born into a poor rural family. When he was about 8, he was taken to Japan by an affluent Japanese family (Japan had already occupied Korea, in 1910, and it was not unusual for Japanese families to take poor Korean children back to Japan with them). It is thought that this was along the lines of what we'd think of as an adoption today, although during the occupation the Japanese didn't have to go through the legal procedures you'd have to go through today to adopt a child.

From here it gets blurry. There was an interview with Choi published in the mid-80s that attributes the following account to him, but the entire English version of the interview is dubious at best, and the Korean original (tape) is not available to the public. At any rate, Choi's story per this interview is that he was an ill-behaved child, and the couple who took him to Japan eventually dumped him off at a Buddhist temple. While there, he somehow came to be acquainted with Takeda Sokaku, the reviver and headmaster of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. This would have been around 1915.

Choi maintained that he spent the next 30 years studying Daito-ryu under Takeda, and that Takeda wanted to pass the position of headmaster to him. The controversy here is that there are no known records of Choi's having trained under Takeda. This is problematic because Takeda kept meticulous enrollment records (eimeiroku) of his students. Supporters of Choi's story have rationalized that he does not appear in the records because he was Korean, and many Japanese at that time had very low regard for Koreans.

Takeda died of complications following a stroke in 1943. Choi maintained that Takeda told him to return to Korea and teach Daito-ryu to the Koreans, because once Takeda was dead, the Japanese would kill him. Choi returned to Korea around 1945.

From here forward, there is no substantial dispute about Choi and his art, as what he taught and who his most important students were is pretty well documented.

Choi became a pig farmer in the Daegu area of South Korea. He would go to a local brewery to buy the spent grain from the brewing process to feed his pigs, as did other farmers. One day he was waiting in line to buy grain, and a fight broke out over somebody cutting in the line. Choi became involved in the fight when he was attacked by a couple of the other farmers. The son of the brewery's owner, Suh Bok Sub, saw the fight from an upstairs window. Suh was a black belt in Judo at the time. Choi subdued 2 or 3 opponents with what Suh thought was remarkable ease, using locking and throwing techniques that Suh had never seen.

Suh approached Choi and asked him what martial art he had used to defend himself against the aggressors. Choi told him it was Daito-ryu, and that he had learned it in Japan. Suh asked Choi if he would demonstrate some defenses against a few typical Judo techniques. Choi agreed, and defeated Suh's attempts to throw him with ease. Suh eventually became Choi's first Korean student when Choi began to teach.

Choi originally called what he had learned in Japan "Yawara". Yawara is a term that is synonymous with Jujutsu. In fact, it's written with the same Chinese characters as Jujutsu. During the first ten or so years that Choi taught in Korea, his art had a few different names, including Hapkiyusul and Hapkiyukwonsul. “Hapkiyusul” is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters that are read as “Aikijujutsu” in Japanese. Exactly how the name “Hapkido” came into being is controversial. Ji Han Jae, one of Choi’s most important early students, maintains that he created the name and “presented” it to Choi. Others believe that Choi himself created the name.

Ji Han Jae began studying under Choi in 1949, at the age of 13. He trained under him regularly for three years, then more infrequently for a few years after that. Choi taught Ji material from the Yawara/Aikijujutsu that he had learned in Japan. After a few years, Ji returned to Seoul and began teaching on his own. He also sought out martial artists who knew traditional Korean arts, and added many techniques that he learned from them to his branch of Hapkido. The most important additions from Ji and his colleague, Kim Moo Wong (or Hong), were the kicking techniques that most people associate with Hapkido today. Ji also added a philosophical element, which includes meditation and breathing techniques, to Choi’s Yawara base.

Ji eventually began to teach Hapkido to the presidential bodyguards in Korea. While he was involved in this teaching, in 1979, the president, Pak Chun Hee, was assassinated in the Blue House (the Korean president’s house) by a member of the Korean intelligence service. Ji, along with many others, was eventually charged with a crime (tax evasion) on very dubious evidence, convicted and sentenced to one year in prison. It is generally agreed that he, like many others who were convicted of similar offenses following the Pak assassination, was simply made a scapegoat for the assassination.

Ji emigrated to the United States in 1984 and formed the Sin Moo Hapkido organization. He currently lives in New Jersey, near Philadelphia.

Ji is very important because almost all of today’s prominent Korean Hapkido masters trained under him. It is probably safe to say that 95% or more of the Hapkido dojangs around the world can trace their lineage back to Ji somehow. It is generally agreed that a few Korean masters who have claimed to have been Choi’s direct students were, in fact, students of Ji. One of the better-known masters who was a direct student of Ji is Han Bong Soo. Han is probably best known for his role in the “Billy Jack” movies, in which he performed the fighting scenes involving the spectacular kicks that caught many people’s attention.

After Ji parted from Choi, returned to Seoul and began teaching Hapkido on his own, Choi remained in Daegu and continued to teach the original Yawara-based art he had learned in Japan. One of his foremost students was Lim Hyun Soo. Lim began studying Hapkido under a direct student of Choi, Kim Yeung Jae, but soon became a direct student of Choi. Lim continued to train regularly under Choi for the next 19 years. During nine years of that time, he took regular private lessons from Choi.

In 1974 Lim opened the Jungkikwan. One of his primary goals was to perpetuate the Aikijujutsu-based art he had learned from Choi. During the 1980’s, Lim added a sword art (Chung Suk Kuhapdo) of his own creation to the Jungkikwan curriculum. Chung Suk Kuhapdo is heavily influenced by the Yamauchi-ha branch of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, one of the best-known Iaijutsu ryu in Japan. Lim has been a direct student of the Sekiguchi Komei, the current headmaster of the Yamauchi-ha branch of MJER.

In 1976 Choi Yong Sul closed his dojang and ceased active, regular teaching. During most of the time until his death in 1986, he visited the Jungkikwan daily and continued to teach informally and to private students.

In 1983 Choi awarded Lim the rank of 9th dan in Hapkido. He is one of four men (that we know of) to have achieved this rank from Choi.

Jungki Hapkido adheres strictly to the Aiki-based Jujutsu techniques that Choi taught. Choi always maintained that he taught exactly what he had learned in Japan, which he always said was Daito-ryu, from Takeda. Similarly, Lim teaches exactly what he learned from Choi.

Another noteworthy master who was awarded 9th dan from Choi is Kim Yun Sang. Kim is the head of the Hapkiyusul organization in Geumsan, South Korea. Like Lim, he teaches an art that is based on what he learned from Choi, and does not include any of the kicking techniques that Ji and Kim (Moo Hong) added to Hapkido. There is a clear “aiki” basis to Kim’s Hapkiyusul, just as there is to Jungki Hapkido.

Both the Jungkikwan and Hapkiyusul are small organizations. The Jungkikwan currently operates a single dojang in Daegu, South Korea. I don’t know how many dojangs the Hapkiyusul organization has, but I imagine it’s very few.

Link to the Jungkikwan website (which has extensive material in English): http://jungkikwan.com/

Link to the Hapkiyusul website: http://www.hapkiyusul.com/

Link to the “mainline” Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu organization:

There does not appear to be a single official website for Sin Moo Hapkido, but Googling “Sin Moo Hapkido” will bring up many links that you can explore.

Personal notes/disclosures:

1.   I have been a student of Jungki Hapkido and Chung Suk Kuhapdo for years and continue to train regularly. Notwithstanding, what I’ve written above is as impartial and historically accurate as I can make it based on the verifiable information available to me currently.
2.   In order to try to decide for myself whether it was possible that Choi could have learned Daito-ryu in Japan, I sought out training in Daito-ryu. I am very fortunate in that there is a legitimate Daito-ryu dojo within 20 miles of my home (there are extremely few legitimate Daito-ryu dojo in the US). The dojo is home to a study group that is affiliated with Kondo Katsuyuki, the current headmaster of the “mainline” branch of Daito-ryu that is linked directly to the Takeda family. I trained with the study group for about 18 months and attended two of Kondo’s US seminars. I have not trained with them in several months, due to personal reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the instruction or the students themselves. The instruction at the study group is of the highest caliber, and the students are a fine group of guys.
Based on my direct experiences in Choi’s original art and Daito-ryu, I believe it is quite probable that Choi learned Daito-ryu in Japan, either directly from Takeda, as he always maintained, or from one of Takeda’s licensed instructors. Among those instructors, the most likely to have taught Choi (IMO) is Kotaro Yoshida, who taught a family art (Yanagi ryu) in addition to Daito-ryu. Yanagi-ryu survives in the US today due to its transmission by Yoshida’s son, Kenji, to Don Angier. The Yanagi-ryu techniques that I have seen on video bear a striking resemblance to Jungki Hapkido.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)