What does kumite mean to you?

[Chihua-ku]

For me, "kumite" means sparring. Just that. But there is an honor and rules to it. The ancient warriors lived and died by a code of honor, perhaps romanticized and exagerated by the West, but they did nonetheless. I have said this many times before in these boards, and I will say it again (and I am just paraphrasing Bruce Lee here): "martial arts without philosophy is simply violence". Noble words to remember him by and ponder...

[ronin7411]

Well you might think that I'm crazy but let me say this I wouldn't mind fighting full contact why BECAUSE ITS REAL AND THERE ARE NO RULES PLUS I ALREADY KNOW PEOPLE DOING IT especially if there is some money involved if I win I'm down. Where I stay at is a big MMA hot bed and they have what we call out here "smoker bouts" in which its like the movie 2 guys go into an arena (out here everyone uses the MMA cage) in unsanctioned bouts for cash and its basically their coaches betting on their fighters. They just don't have the Kumite in South Africa, in Iran they have the Iranian Vale Tudo Championship, if you want to get technical on the issue the US and Mexico has Felony Fights, then don't forget about Vale Tudo fights that still happen in Brazil like Rio Heroes. I can provide proof of everything that I'm saying along with proof that "smoker bouts" do happen because UFC fighter Din Thomas went jail for hosting unsanctioned MMA bouts then breaking up the money from ticket sales that he hosted through American Top Team's St. Lucie, Florida gym. I know what I'm going to do is extremely dangerous but I'm comfortable with that.

BDFS South Africa Website

http://www.blackdragon.co.za/homepage/126/home/

http://www.blackdragon.co.za/content/189/82/bloodfist_6_kumite_sa/

http://www.blackdragon.co.za/gallery/190/474/Page,1/#Gallery

Felony Fights

http://www.felonyfights.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/magazine/23martial-t.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=felony+fights&st=nyt&oref=slogin

Din Thomas Arrested for Doing Smoker Bouts

http://mmajunkie.com/news/3086/din-thomas-arrested-for-allegedly-running-un-sanctioned-mma-fights.mma

Rio Heroes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI8gkySDu1Y

http://www.yorkblog.com/mma/2008/02/post_49.html

Iranian Vale Tudo Championship

http://www.ivt.20m.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFgV6vDlWvA


     

[Alcatraz]

Depends on the stylist and on the person's needs in the martial arts in my eyes.

Kumite is an underground tournament held by the Black Dragon Fighting Society that basically is a full contact Vale Tudo fight on a Karate style arena floor with no ropes and if the opponent falls out, gets knocked out, or submits they lose. Well as everybody knows from the movie Bloodsport that Frank Dux is known for competing in these kinds of tournaments but some people say that it never existed but I have the proof that it does and they're looking for people to fight in it but its held in South Africa now. Here is the link to it if anybody on this forum feels like trying out for the Kumite but be forewarned its no holds barred full contact which means leave everything you ever learned at home and just be prepared to just send someone to the hospital.

http://www.officialblackdragonfightingsociety.com/history.html

But in general and for the Japanese martial artists it stands for free fighting/sparring with each other.

Dude,

Step away from the Bloodsport DVD very slowly....

[ronin7411]

Depends on the stylist and on the person's needs in the martial arts in my eyes.

Kumite is an underground tournament held by the Black Dragon Fighting Society that basically is a full contact Vale Tudo fight on a Karate style arena floor with no ropes and if the opponent falls out, gets knocked out, or submits they lose. Well as everybody knows from the movie Bloodsport that Frank Dux is known for competing in these kinds of tournaments but some people say that it never existed but I have the proof that it does and they're looking for people to fight in it but its held in South Africa now. Here is the link to it if anybody on this forum feels like trying out for the Kumite but be forewarned its no holds barred full contact which means leave everything you ever learned at home and just be prepared to just send someone to the hospital.

http://www.officialblackdragonfightingsociety.com/history.html

But in general and for the Japanese martial artists it stands for free fighting/sparring with each other.

[Baylin]

Thanks for all your replies!

It's always interesting to find out what something means to somebody else.

[Waxahachie]

Thanks for the clarification, John.  I should say that I don't think it was my instructor who gave me that misconception.  He actually almost never uses either word.   

[Alcatraz]

The 3 K's are Kihon, Kata, and Kumite. I was simply being a little sarcastic in my 2 K's and an R statement.

Wax,

I'm not saying your instructor is wrong, however he/she is quoting a misconception born out of the arts which use the phrases Kumite and Randori.

Yes, Randori is used primarily by grappling arts, and Kumite is primarily used by striking arts, and although they have different literal meanings as indicated in my first post on this thread; linguistically, Kumite and Randori could be used, quite correctly as interchangeable terms for exactly the same practice, which is of course, Free-Sparring.

[Brandon]

Maybe kata, kumite, and kihon, at least that's how my sensei runs things.

[Waxahachie]

I was told that kumite is sparring, i.e. punches and kicks, whereas randori is freestyle practice for grappling, throwing and/or evading attack arts like Aikido and Judo and Jujutsu.

[bogirl]

I always the 3 k's of Karate as kata, kumite and kobudo...

[Alcatraz]

Bunkai and Oyo are the application of specific portions of Kata study. Bunkai being the fixed or taught application and Oyo is the 'logical' explored application.

Randori and Kumite are different in that they are actual methods of free sparring.

Although it is said that Karate is the stdy of the three K's.

Somehow I don't think Karate is the study of two K's and an R sounds quite as alluring and mystical. 

[Bluecrab]

So Randori would equal what I would call Bunkai or Oyo?  This is where someone comes at you, and you react to the situation.

Hi SG7,

That's an interesting question... when you think of bunkai, you are thinking of the specific application(s) of the techniques in the kata?

In the jujutsu that I've trained in, oyo is typically used in conjunction with waza - oyo waza is application of a technique. So, it seems to me that the meaning is very close to bunkai.

Interestingly, I've never heard the term bunkai used in jujutsu.

John has it exactly right with respect to randori. I've never seen randori done in Daito-ryu, but they definitely do it in aikido, so perhaps it exists in Daito-ryu at a higher level that what I've been exposed to.

[supergroup7]

So Randori would equal what I would call Bunkai or Oyo?  This is where someone comes at you, and you react to the situation.

And Kumite would equal sparring? Where we practice our techniques in a fluid fighting manner.

Just wondering if I am understanding the terminology in this thread correctly.

[Alcatraz]

To ask what the difference between Randori and Kumite is, is akin to asking what is the difference between the English words Sparring or Fight Training.

Kumite = Unite hands. IE, the coming together of hands (Sparring).

Randori = Grasping Freedom. IE, Freedom of form (Fight Training).

So in answer to your question, despite the two words having two different translations, principally they mean exactly the same thing.

The only difference being that Kumite was adopted as the phrase of choice by the Karate based arts, and Randori was adopted by Judo (thru Jiu-jutsu), and Aikido (thru Aiki-jutsu).

So in answer to the question in the title Kumite means exactly the same thing as Randori. It's just different words to describe the same practice.

[deckyrd]

I never got the pleasure of doing randori in my Aikido training, but I would have LOVED to give it a shot.  The best I ever did was being one of the attackers during a randori and that was cool enough to make me want to try it.

Kumite/Sparring...  Well, anymore it's just a glorified game of tag, isn't it?  Tournament sparring is especially bad for learning practical applications because it teaches you to land ONE technique and then stop -- and that just isn't real.  My sparring training damn near got my head knocked off when I started boxing because of all sorts of bad habits I picked up that were GREAT for tournament sparring, but, as I said, nearly got me killed in a more realistic fight situation.

It's not bad, and it does teach reflexes and reaction times and recognizing openings and going for them when you spot them, but all in all I've just about given up sparring at the dojo because I learned the hard way how detrimental it was for practical purposes.  The only sparring I think that would be helpful in real life is the world-class and olympic sparring where they count points, but you don't stop the match until someone drops or in-between rounds.