What is Karate?

[deckyrd]

Well put, Supergroup!

And thank you for reminding me of Funakoshi's humility -- he was a member of the Shizoku (privileged) class, but unfortunately his father had squandered much of the family fortune acrued by his grandfather, so they really were nobility in title only. 

I just picked up a pair of DVD's of Funakoshi that were originally produced in 1954 (as films, of course) that I'm excited to finally watch (when I have a spare hour or two to sit and enjoy them).  Should be interesting to see the man himself practicing and doing kata and demonstrations -- nice little way to reach into the past, eh? 

[NightOwl]

Thankyou for posting on this thread Supergroup:

I've disagreed with some of the things said here but am no longer sure if what I thought to be true was from Funakoshi or not and didn't feel like I could post from a position of Knowledge.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[supergroup7]

I've read, and re-read Sensei Funakoshi's autobiography.

Sensei Funakoshi changed the characters used for the words "Kara" "Te"  It used to be written with the Kanji that meant "Chinese" Kara   "Hand" Te , but when Sensei Funakoshi wrote about it he changed the characters to be "Void/Empty" Kara "Hand" Te.  There was quite an outcry about him doing this change at the time, but he defended his choice, and in time many of the other Instructors started using the "Empty" "Hands" Kanji in their writings.

Shoto Kan came from how the students would try to explain what school they belonged to: "Shoto" was Sensei Gichin Funakoshi's pen name for when he would do the Art of Caligraphy.  So when asked as to what school they belong to, Sensei Funakoshi's students would say "Shoto's house/club/building"  or "Shoto" "Kan"    The nickname stuck.

I have to disagree that Sensei Funakoshi was a snob.  His autobiography shows a completely different story. Yes, he was proud of his family heritage, but he also was extremely humble.  He worked as a custodian at the school where he resided in Japan, exchanging Karate lessons with the school cafeteria chef for his daily meals.  He was so poor that at one point he had to go to a thrift store to sell his hat.  Luckily, unknown to him, the owner of the store was related to one of Sensei Funakoshi's students, and paid an extremely handsome price for the old beaten Okinawan hat. 

Sensei Funakoshi would teach anyone who was sincerely interested in learning Karate, whether it was a Gaijin ( Outsider), a prince, a woman, a child, or another Sensei.  He always hoped that he had lived up to the responsibilities placed upon him by his former Teachers. He realized that the Okinawan Karate of his youth looked far different from what his Japanese Students were currently performing, and wondered how much this would affect Karate in the future both positively, and negatively. He believed that there was a possibility of healing and peace that can happen when one followed the path of Karate, and he was willing to share that with anyone who would listen. After World War II, It was Sensei Gichin Funakoshi with a handful of his students, and Judo students that travelled around the world to various U.S. Army Bases giving demonstrations of Martial Arts educating, and inspiring American soldiers to realize the power and beauty of the Way.

[Alcatraz]

I'll admit that I've never read Funakoshi's autobiography, but unless it was a revised edition, Funakoshi never referred to his system as Shotokan.

The Shotokan was the location/dojo name where he taught his art, an art which he simply labled 'Karate', and although it was a simplified version of Shorin-ryu he was teaching, he never used that name, as Shorin-ryu would acknowledge the 'peasant' roots of Karate. Shotokan was not a distinct Ryu-ha until AFTER Funakoshi's death.

A simillar situation is Shukokai. Shukokai was the name of the Dojo where Chojiro Tani taught his Japanese version of Shi to-ryu (Tani-Ha Shi to-ryu). However, over the years, Shukokai has  become the actual de-facto Ryu-ha as opposed to the name of the Dojo.

If Funaksohi had followed tradition, his system would have been called Funakoshi-ha Shorin-ryu taught at the Shotokan.

What we also have to remember is, that for all intents and purposes, Funakoshi was a bit of a snob who was teaching snobs who looked down on Okinawans, and as he was (allegedly) the first to take Okinawan 'Karate' to Japan, he felt that all Karate should follow his model and his teachings.

For further info on Okinawan Karate and it's evolution into Japanese Karate, may I suggest looking at Karate-ka Yudansha and research authors such as Patrick McCarthy, Harry Cook, and Mark Bishop.

edited for clarity.

[deckyrd]

I just find it interesting in his autobiography, Funakoshi makes no mention of any kind of Ryu-ha (thanks for the term, Alc!) except Shotokan, and he doesn't specify when his students gave it that name -- only that they did and it was a reference to his poetic pen-name.

Where's your info coming from?  I'd love to read it and learn more!

[bogirl]

Te (or more properly To-te) was a generic name for all the Okinawan unarmed methods (excluding Tegumi-The Okinawan wrestling art). Funakoshi taught a particular regional Ryu-ha called Shorin-ryu from the Shuri area, and this was the Ryu-ha which he modified to make it more acceptable to the Japanese, where it then evolved into what we now know as Shotokan.

Which is why we refer to Shotokan as a Japanese rather than Okinawan Karate.  Funakoshi made some major stance changes and changed some other techniques from what he learned from Itosu.  He also changed most of the kata names from Okinawan dialect to Japanese. 

You can clearly see the the differences between the Pinan (Okinawan) and Heian (Japanese) kata sets.

[Alcatraz]

...As I remember Didn't Funakoshi Modify  Te in order to make it more acceptable and teachable to the tastes on the Japaneses mainland?

Sincerely, NightOwl

Not quite.

Te (or more properly To-te) was a generic name for all the Okinawan unarmed methods (excluding Tegumi-The Okinawan wrestling art). Funakoshi taught a particular regional Ryu-ha called Shorin-ryu from the Shuri area, and this was the Ryu-ha which he modified to make it more acceptable to the Japanese, where it then evolved into what we now know as Shotokan.

Edited for clarity and spelling..John

[NightOwl]

I think the thing that we need to remember is that each art evolves with its practitioners and great teachers.  The Art itself is part of their legacy.  In that sense we can say that Kenpo is an American Art.   Just as we can say that Shotokan is a Japanese Art. 

As I remember Didn't Funakoshi Modify  Te in order to make it more acceptable and teachable to the tastes on the Japaneses mainland?

Sincerely, NightOwl

[NightOwl]

Hi Alcatraz:

Thanks for the reminder about Kun verses Kwoon. I'm a notoriously BAD speller.

I'm aware of the information you posted about the way the kanji translates.  Part of the confusion as I said again lies in the roots of the Art and oral history of how each is taught to sensei or sifu to student.  And what branch or lineage is doing the teaching. My Impression is that there is a lot of acrimony amoung the factions such that they don't even mention each other in the lineages.  My First teacher was from Ed Parkers lineage and used the N.   And though we all know that the art came to us through Japan and was heavily influenced it was also clear that the roots are chinese.  Although the Tracy's may or may not agree.


In any event.  Around 1962 Ed Parker actually stopped calling it Karate and latter called his art Chinese Kenpo and around 1964  just Kenpo.   As I heard it years ago the "chinese" was  so that the chinese origin would not be forgotten as to why he later dropped chinese and just went with Kenpo I don't know or don't remember.

My whole point in saying all this though is that as a system whether you call it Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, Kenpo Karate.  As an art and now a series of arts,  it traces its lineage through Parker and Chow to the Yoshida Clan that brought it from China yet it is still for many, today considered a form of Karate.  As for the systems that have translated out as KeMpo I don't know their lineages and whether they come through the Parker, Chow, Yoshida pipeline or not.

There is enough confusion just here in the states.

Sincerely,  NightOwl

[Alcatraz]

Ryu-ha is a term which the Japanese and Okinawans use to refer to what we in the West would call styles or systems.

It's most literal translation is Ryu (School) Ha (Family or Same Thinking).

As I said earlier, Funakoshi may have considered his art Okinawan, but the fact remains that the Shotokan practiced from the 1950's onwards is a very different beast from the art which Funakoshi originally taught which was in effect a simplified version of Okinawan Shorin-ryu, ergo I stand by my definition of Shotokan as a Japanese Karate Ryu-ha.

[deckyrd]

How can it be incorrect when the founder (an Okinawan) himself thought of it as an Okinawan style?

(By the way, thank you for the correction on the meaning of Shotokan -- it's been a while since I read Funakoshi's writing) 

Theoretically, all Karate is Okinawan...  If you want to extrapolate it out to say that Shotokan is Japanese karate derived from Okinawan karate, you might as well go so far as to say that Okinawan karate is derived from Chinese Chuan-Fa (and/or Kempo). 

(however, even that is untrue as the Okinawans have oral history dating back centuries referring to their own unarmed fighting system, simply referred to as Te -- it just never rose to prominence until the 1800's and never spread off of the Ryukyu islands until Funakoshi took it to Japan)

Also, just for clarification - what exactly is a "Ryu-ha?"  I'm not familiar with the term.

[Alcatraz]

I never said that Funakoshi wasn't Okinawan, what I said was that Shotokan is a Japanese Karate Ryu-ha.

The name Shotokan (House of The Waving Pines) was coined by Funakoshi's Japanese students as a mark of respect to Funakoshi who used the name Shoto as a pen-name, therefore Shotokan is Japanese Karate derived from Okinawan Shorin-ryu.

The Shotokan taught by Nakayama etc, is vastly different from the simplified Shorin-ryu which Funakoshi originally taught in Japan. It evolved into what we now know as Shotokan in Japan, not Okinawa.

To refer to Shotokan as Okinawan Karate would be incorrect. It would be more correct to refer to Shotokan as Japanese Karate derived from Okinawan Karate.

[deckyrd]

Sorry to contradict, Alcatraz, but Shotokan was created by Gichin Funakoshi -- an Okinawan. 
To be fundamentalist about it, the only true "Japanese" martial arts are Aikido, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, and the other warrior training undergone by samurai (kendo, kyudo, iaido, etc.).  All other forms of Karate came from Okinawan gentry.

At the root of it all, all karate stems from the same place -- style names evolved not out of differences in styles (initially -- they are very different now, but weren't at the beginning), but from names given to or given by the instructors.  To use Shotokan as an example again:  Shotokan was Gichin Funakoshi's pen-name from his short-lived days as a poet and literally means "Wind blowing through pine trees" (or something roughly equivalent).  When he opened his own dojo and started teaching his own classes, his students posted the name "Shotokan" above the door as a sign of respect for their teacher, whom they loved so much.
Similarly, Shudokan simply means "the hall for the study of the (karate) way."  Again, the difference in style vs. other types of karate is simply a process of evolution throughout the years of teaching different students and then THEY teach their students slightly differently, etc. etc. etc.

Also, Kung-Fu should not really be used to describe any Chinese fighting style -- it's a misnomer that has been terribly abused.  Kung-Fu literally means a high level of skill -- you can be a kung-fu painter, a kung-fu poet, a kung-fu actor...  I think the term you're looking for is Wushu.

But you're right, Kempo does differ from Karate, and was also known as Chuan-Fa, which influenced early Karate (or To-Te, or Okinawa-Te, or simply Te -- which are all names that contemporary Karate have used in the past), but they are not considered the same.

But to get back to the topic at hand -- Karate and what it is...  Hard to answer in simple terms, as it means something different to everybody.  To truly answer this question, you should ask YOURSELF "what is Karate to ME?"  I guarantee, that's the best way to get the best answer. 

[Alcatraz]

Let's Not forget Kenpo

Which for my branch is considered Chinese but since it came here  has morphed into Japanese,  Chinese,  Hawaiian and American branches.

Remember when things started here  we didn't even have Karate Gi's and the only thing that people knew about was Judo or Jujitsu .
(A bit early for me)


Kenpo is considered Karate even if its origins lie in China.

I suspect that the difference is in the the confusion between Kenpo and Kempo and whether the particular branch emphasizes the chinese roots or the Japaneses influence in its lineage.


But for me the true idea of Karate lies in Ed Parkers dojo kwoon      "Empty Hands" 

This says it all mainly because Karate though it may use weapons it is basicly an empty handed art that is not dependant on having a weapon.


Sincerely, NightOwl

Liguistically there is no difference between KeNpo and KeMpo. The word Ken means 'fist' and the P sound substitutes the D in Do or 'Way', ergo Kem(n)po = Way of The Fist. The term Chinese Kenpo is an oxymoron as Chinese is an English langage word and Kenpo is Romanized Japanese. The correct term for Chinese arts in this combination should be Chinese Chuan-fa; Chuan-fa being the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters which when read in Japanese are Kempo. Incidently, in Japanese the word Ken (Fist) when pronounced in the context of Kem(n)po is pronounced Kem, ergo, although their is no linguistic difference between Kenpo and Kempo, the latter is the prefered Japanese pronunciation.

One other wee nitpick if I may, you mention Ed Parkers Dojo Creed or Motto, this is a Dojo Kun, not a Dojo Kwoon (That's a Japanese and Chinese word which describe a place of study).

[NightOwl]

Let's Not forget Kenpo

Which for my branch is considered Chinese but since it came here  has morphed into Japanese,  Chinese,  Hawaiian and American branches.

Remember when things started here  we didn't even have Karate Gi's and the only thing that people knew about was Judo or Jujitsu .
(A bit early for me)


Kenpo is considered Karate even if its origins lie in China.

I suspect that the difference is in the the confusion between Kenpo and Kempo and whether the particular branch emphasizes the chinese roots or the Japaneses influence in its lineage.


But for me the true idea of Karate lies in Ed Parkers dojo kwoon      "Empty Hands" 

This says it all mainly because Karate though it may use weapons it is basicly an empty handed art that is not dependant on having a weapon.


Sincerely, NightOwl