Dim Mak: reality or myth?

[Bluecrab]

Similar to a jab before a heavy punch? The difference is that a jab can still finish the fight. Sooo....Why have the technique if it won't finish the fight? An ends to a means? Sounds like the long way around to me. I think it is more for the preservation of the attacker than anything. It is certainly not the fastest way to end the fight IMO. Which is what I want. I want to finish it in the shortest time possible, w/o killing the attacker if possible.

Let me try to elaborate.

I referred to our vital-point techniques as setup techniques. To be more clear, the vital-point techniques - which I said give you less than one second of a window of opportunity - immediately precede a technique that is intended to end the fight, and with no concern for the preservation of the attacker, who ran the risk of getting seriously injured when he started the fight. We never look to prolong a fight. You will never see any of those "flow drills", in which people move through a series of three or four successive joint locks, in our kwan. We aim to finish the fight with one primary technique.

If you've ever seen any legitimate Daito-ryu aikijujutsu or certain "hard" styles of aikido, you might have seen techniques in which a grabbing opponent has his body "locked" momentarily, stiffens his arms and rises up on his toes. This is the kind of effect I'm talking about. During the brief instant he's in that state, you throw and/or pin him, then (in the old days) kill him, typically with a tanto.

You, being a karateka, would most likely look to end a fight with one or more strikes. We, on the other hand, would be most likely to use a destructive joint lock, throw or other submission technique like a choke. The throws would be executed in a way that prevents the opponent from breakfalling successfully out of them and that cause injury through abrupt contact with the ground.

That's just a difference in the philosophy and approach of the two arts, and is just fine.

As for Dillman, I've already said above that I believe he is a fraud, and that that has been demonstrated plenty of times. Whatever it is that he purports to do bears little to no resemblance to our vital-point techniques.

[Gambatte Karate]

What does Dillman's being a fraud have to do with the absence of vital point striking in the UFC?

A lot of people claim that Dim Mak can do what he claims it can do. In fact, almost every single practitioner that I have ever dealt with has made claims similar. I always just shrug them off.

With all due respect, this is simply a common misconception.

I've used significant resistance against plenty of training partners who have been able to get me to respond as hoped with vital point attacks.

There are numerous vital points that can be affected in the face of resistance, and they're all over your body. Some involve involuntary physiological reactions, like the gag reflex (ever been struck hard in the windpipe, or had somebody drive a couple of fingers into the base of your windpipe at the top of your ribcage?). Know why you haven't seen such strikes in the UFC? Because they're illegal.

You don't restrict your self-defense arsenal to things that are legal in the UFC, do you?

Absoluely not, but....If it was even CLOSE to being useful or even somewhat effective, then it would be used in the ring. I have seen a lot of guys use pressure point techniques against a student who is standing there waiting for the instructor to do a technique. Basicly, he's being a live dummy. Yes, the technique works against him. When I'm moving all over the place, and making things difficult on you by throwing punches and kicks the instructors way, with bad intentions, is he still as confident? Doubtful. This is what I am meaning by fully resisting.

Precisely.

Once again - I'm not suggesting that the strikes and manipulations we use are intended to be KO blows or fight-enders. They are not. They are intended to facilitate a technique that follows immediately by providing a momentary opening. They are setup techniques for a primary technique that follows. They have nothing to do with some mysterious force called "chi" or anything else. They're based on the body's reflexive reaction to certain types of stimulation.

Similar to a jab before a heavy punch? The difference is that a jab can still finish the fight. Sooo....Why have the technique if it won't finish the fight? An ends to a means? Sounds like the long way around to me. I think it is more for the preservation of the attacker than anything. It is certainly not the fastest way to end the fight IMO. Which is what I want. I want to finish it in the shortest time possible, w/o killing the attacker if possible.

[Brandon]

Brandon, regarding what you've referred to as "temporary numbness", we do not use nerve/vital point attacks simply for pain compliance. In fact, pain compliance is not the primary purpose of any of our techniques. The true purpose of our joint locks, for example, is to damage the joint (not done in training, obviously). Yes, there's pain, but that's secondary. Pain/compliance techniques are important to security people and LEOs for obvious reasons, but the old aikijujutsu techniques that our art derives from were intended to do damage.

I think there might be a misunderstanding. There's a big difference between joint locks and the pain/compliance techniques I'm referring to. I completely agree with you about locks. A joint lock, for example an arm bar, is a highly dangerous technique that can lead to permanent damage. I'm referring to techniques that are very unlikely to do so. I'm thinking of a technique in particular that pushes a nerve cluster against a bone. Believe me, it's blindingly painful and if pulled off correctly, can be used to hold someone to the ground. And getting hit in the bicep certainly does suck and causes temporary numbness. Probably enough to get your friend to stop being a jerk by itself, without having to be a temporary stunning technique to lead into something more damaging.

There are numerous vital points that can be affected in the face of resistance, and they're all over your body. Some involve involuntary physiological reactions, like the gag reflex (ever been struck hard in the windpipe, or had somebody drive a couple of fingers into the base of your windpipe at the top of your ribcage?). Know why you haven't seen such strikes in the UFC? Because they're illegal.

I'm not sure that punching someone in the throat is what we're talking about when anyone here says "Dim Mak." Certainly that's a strike to a "vital point" and absolutely a disrupting technique, if not a fight ender.

Seems like we might be talking around each other.

[Gambatte Karate]

Dillman being a fraud and this guy in the video being a fraud are part of the reason I am not a believer in Dim Mak. Their being frauds is relative to the fact that no-one in UFC or any other PRO MMA fighting venue claim to use Dim Mak. Dim Mak practitioners often claim to be able to "stop any man" with their skills. When in reality, they can't. I have little time right now to respond, but I will finish up later with more. 

[Bluecrab]

I have a question then.....Since this guy was obviously a fraud (and got exposed on TV. LOL), why then haven't we seen any fighters in UFC (or any other MMA type event) who claim to be using Dim Mak effectivly?

What does Dillman's being a fraud have to do with the absence of vital point striking in the UFC?

Does it work? Yes, against someone who is not providing resistance.

With all due respect, this is simply a common misconception.

I've used significant resistance against plenty of training partners who have been able to get me to respond as hoped with vital point attacks.

There are numerous vital points that can be affected in the face of resistance, and they're all over your body. Some involve involuntary physiological reactions, like the gag reflex (ever been struck hard in the windpipe, or had somebody drive a couple of fingers into the base of your windpipe at the top of your ribcage?). Know why you haven't seen such strikes in the UFC? Because they're illegal.

You don't restrict your self-defense arsenal to things that are legal in the UFC, do you?

Would I rely on it to save my life? Not a chance. But thats just me. 

Precisely.

Once again - I'm not suggesting that the strikes and manipulations we use are intended to be KO blows or fight-enders. They are not. They are intended to facilitate a technique that follows immediately by providing a momentary opening. They are setup techniques for a primary technique that follows. They have nothing to do with some mysterious force called "chi" or anything else. They're based on the body's reflexive reaction to certain types of stimulation.

Brandon, regarding what you've referred to as "temporary numbness", we do not use nerve/vital point attacks simply for pain compliance. In fact, pain compliance is not the primary purpose of any of our techniques. The true purpose of our joint locks, for example, is to damage the joint (not done in training, obviously). Yes, there's pain, but that's secondary. Pain/compliance techniques are important to security people and LEOs for obvious reasons, but the old aikijujutsu techniques that our art derives from were intended to do damage.

[Brandon]

Maybe the temporary numbness/compliance stuff is good against a buddy who has one two many and takes a swing but doesn't really want to kick your butt, so they're not fighting that hard and you don't want to clobber them.

[Gambatte Karate]

I have a question then.....Since this guy was obviously a fraud (and got exposed on TV. LOL), why then haven't we seen any fighters in UFC (or any other MMA type event) who claim to be using Dim Mak effectivly?

Does it work? Yes, against someone who is not providing resistance. Yes, again, when used by someone with pinpoint accuracy. (This I have yet to see in a real confrontation) In a real life situation? Not likely IMO. Put your highest ranked Dim Mak practitioner against the likes of Chuck Liddell or Matt Hughes and see where they end up. Things like this have been done, and shown not to work effectivly.

So, is it good to know? Yes. It is. Would I rely on it to save my life? Not a chance. But thats just me. 

[Bluecrab]

Here is a great Dim Mak video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

It is also a LARGE reason why I am so skeptical. 

People shouldn't take Dillman nor any of his close associates to be representative of dim mak, pressure point striking, nerve point striking, kyoshu jutsu or whatever you choose to call it. The guy is a fraud. Look no further than his chi ball nonsense for ample proof of that.

Vital point striking is an effective component of many old fighting systems, including the aikijujutsu root of our hapkido style. We tend to affect these points more by grabbing with the fingertips than with pure striking. I've felt well-done nerve point techniques many times in training over the years, and they tend to work very well on me (maybe because I'm not really bulky and my nerves are probably close to my skin).

Our nerve point techniques do not aim to knock out an opponent. Rather, they're meant to momentarily disrupt some kind of neurological process, often causing something like a shudder that can affect your entire body for a brief moment (1/4 - 1/2 second, usually). It's during that brief moment of disruption of your opponent that you have an opportunity to follow with a locking, throwing or striking technique.

I think it's a shame that fraudsters have created so much confusion about a component of many traditional arts that can be quite effective.

[bogirl]

I don't believe in the magical "death touch" that is often associated with Dim Mak.

That said, there are definately points of the body that when struck properly can cause numbness or pain. We teach one in a bunkai from Pinan Godan.  When you turn to the back with an inside middle bock, instead of just blocking the attacker's punch, you attack the bicep with your block.  Done properly, that can "shock" the muscle, and make it go numb, making the arm almost useless.  Another easily struck spot on the arm is just below the elbow.  Slamming a downward fisthammer or knifehand strike on the muscle just below the elbow can cause the whole arm to go numb, effectively removing one limb from the fight.

Neither of those are long-term effects, but can give you the edge you need to end the fight.

As for acupuncture, I get it done several times a year to fix my carpal tunnel issues.  When I'm having problems, my wrist gets tight and stiff and I can even feel the sensation clear up to my shoulder.  Several needles placed in my wrist, elbow (the same spot you can numb with a strike) and shoulder, and allowed to set for 30 minutes makes it feel much better.  I can feel the energy flowing again.

Way better than the surgery that only works about half the time and would have to be handled through L&I.

[Chihua-ku]

I see some healthy skepticism on this issue. Myself, I do not know. I feel there must have to be some true to it (as an anthropologist by training, I believe most myths do have some true to them; i.e.: The Trojan War). Like Brandon said, there are spots in the body that cause a lot of pain if manipulated the "right way". And I can see why is dim mak is not a technique that is openly taught (it is supposed to be dangerous). I just wanted to know if someone has seen it in real life or learned (like in a martial arts seminar or something like). I am not even sure I would like to learn something so dangerous... Some techniques are better left too fiction. Then again, if my life depended on it...? I do not know. I do not know if I would like to know.

[Brandon]

I'm with Gambatte on the issue of nerve endings and acupuncture. I've never been much on blocked Chi or anything. I know it's a way of describing what goes on in the body, but, frankly, Western medicine and biology do a better job. I won't say acupuncture and "alternative" medicines don't have positive effects, but the traditional reasons given generally have nothing to do with what's actually happening.

As for Dim Mak, I know of a couple spots on the body that feel great if manipulated one way, but make you want to die if they get hit. And not just the obvious one (giggle). There's a spot behind the ear, for example, that if manipulated one way helps with a headache, but another way causes blinding pain. Everybody rubs their temples when they get a headache or sit at a computer too long, and think how much damage a proper strike there can cause.

But, there are frauds out there who claim that they can use chi and Chinese death touch to knock people out with one finger. Has anyone seen George Dillman defrauded on National Geographic?

[Gambatte Karate]

I had seen this guy before being from the southside of Chicago and he is full of it.  I have seen the Dim Mak used to break a brick that was three layers deep in a stack though.  That is more a use of physics and the way you stack the bricks though.

Sounds like something off of the movie "Bloodsport".

[Gambatte Karate]

Ok..Would you claim him to represent your style and association?

I was using sarcasm. No offense intended.

[Gambatte Karate]

I first went to my acupuncturist last October after falling in class on my shoulder.  He helped with that, but I've been amazed, since, at the range of things improved by acupuncture:  headaches, digestive issues, bleeding, etc.  On almost every issue, the acupuncture worked a charm, and right away.  I don't know how it works but I see it really does work.

See? Everything listed here deals with nerve endings (except for the bleeding one) and fooling the body by messing with the nerves and fooling the body to "feel" better. This assists in letting the body to heal it's self.

[bladesaint]

LOL But he's a 7th degree! 

 Ok..Would you claim him to represent your style and association?