Differences with styles...

[NightOwl]

I don't find any of them credible as literal history -- just legends, used to teach principles. 

Exactly.

Perhaps Funakoshi’s story regarding Matsumura’s confrontation is legend perhaps it is aural history. It is still his story and autobiography to tell.  I would be careful lest folks think you are somehow calling him a liar since he isn’t here to defend himself.

We should not forget that aural history is still indeed history even though it is not written down.  This is a mistake that many so called modern, westerners have made in that since it is not written down it is then discounted as some how inaccurate or only “legend.”   You might consider the training of the kahunas in Polynesian culture as an example of this.

Even so, my point with the illustration was that the kiai as a technique was used in conflict and therefore as a technique had to be trained.  Whether it was used as part and parcel to each and every kata, I don’t know.  I do know that certain groups today are trained  how to for lack of a better term,  Kiai silently.

I believe  too that when we think of something that is illegal we think of every man women and child on the street whipping out their cell phones and or running to the authorities and saying that so and so is breaking the laws quick call the cops.   

We should remember that at the time that this was going on there was such wide spread civil disobedience to the “official” policy about martial arts training along with the removal of the Top Knot that Funakoshi’s training in Martial Arts was not only ignored by those officials who knew but utilized by those same officials for the furtherance of the Meiji agenda.

Additionally, I get the impression that when folks today think of Martial Arts instruction they tend to  imagine great dojos and temples full of students  ala Enter the Dragon and Kung Fu. Perhaps in certain societies with warrior classes this was true but I’m also inclined to think that there was a lot of small group   instruction and personal mentoring relationships going on too as Funakoshi also illustrates in telling his story.

The problem with the overal process of  Demythologisation  is that it is circular reasoning.  People start with the concept that this or that doesn’t make sense, therefore It can not be real or actual.  Yet we see every day that the truth is often more fantastic than the fiction.   

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Rick]

I'm not saying no one ever yelled. I'm saying I seriously doubt that people yelled repeatedly during kata practice at a time when it was illegal to practice.

And as for Funakoshi's recounting of legends... those are stories used to illustrate a point. I've read his stuff. And I've read many Okinawan collections of karate folklore. I don't find any of them credible as literal history -- just legends, used to teach principles.

[NightOwl]

Actually, there was probably no yelling in Okinawan karate before the 20th century.
Really. (Hard to keep an art a secret if you're screaming in your back yard at 5 AM.)

Hi Rick: 

Please consider the following quote from Karate-Do My Way of Life by Gichin Funakoshi which I happen to be rereading. 

Please remember also that He was born in 1868 which puts him in the 19th century.


He is telling the story about Master Matsumura and the engraver in which he has previously made the famous quote about when two tigers fight. 

How was he to extricate himself from this predicament? Suddenly he gave voice to a great shout, a kiai,  which sounded like "Yach!" and boomed across the cemetary and echoed back from the surrounding hills. But Matsumura stood still unmoved. At this sight the engraver one again sprang back startled and dismayed.

Master Matsumurra smiled. "What's the matter?"  he called.  "Why don't you attack?  You can't fight a match just by shouting!"

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Rick]

Actually, there was probably no yelling in Okinawan karate before the 20th century.

Really. (Hard to keep an art a secret if you're screaming in your back yard at 5 AM.)

The main differences: Shuri-te turns around on the front foot, usually front kicks with the ball of the foot, usually assumes the enemy is more than one step away, and holds the hands slightly higher (wrist at shoulder level). Naha-te (Goju) turns around on the rear foot, usually front kicks with the heel, usually assumes the enemy is close, and holds the hands slightly lower (top of hand at shoulder level).

But the whole circular vs straight stuff... I don't see it, at an advanced level. They start to look similar.

[Kimpatsu]

Shorinji Kempo kata are characterized by being comparatively short, but executable pair form (sotai) as well as single form (tan'en).
Here's an example; Sensei Edwardo Narro of Portugal executing manji no kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRIRZ_-y6Pc

[Gi]

This has been a very interesting thread, I've enjoyed seeing the different interpretation of the basic hyung/kata. I can't find a video of how we do it exactly but well done Guys!

[supergroup7]

Kyokushin Karate has it's roots in Shotokan Karate, Goju Karate, Judo, and Jiu jutsu, but is a creature of it own now.  Sosai Masutatsu Oyama did study under Master Gichin Funakoshi ( of Shotokan), and under Master So Nei Chu (of Goju Ryu)  He also learned Chinese Kempo.

Kyokushin Karate style is based on circular movement.. but the circular concept is hidden within the application of the techniques.

Here is an instructional video of Pinan Sono Ichi - Go showing what we do for those kata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rock1v3ywcM

Kyokushin focuses on continuous fluid fighting with many devastating low kicks to the legs that just jar your connection with the ground.

A small sample of Kyokushin sparring from a T.V. Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIJHAQEiLVc

[Baylin]

Tracy, Didn't Funokoshi also switch Pinan 1 and Pinan 2 around?

must have done because what you called Pinan Shodan was what I would Heian Nidan

[bogirl]

I'm not sure, because other styles also have them switched, which actually makes sense to me, since the way we number them, Pinan 1 is harder than Pinan 2.

[Gambatte Karate]

Tracy, Didn't Funokoshi also switch Pinan 1 and Pinan 2 around?

[bogirl]

Cat stance is a "lighter" stance.  Better for quick bursts of speed and dodging.  Also, easily set for a front foot kick.   

Back stance is more solid, and can be used to rock back to avoid a strike, then shift forward into zenkutsu, but more difficult to kick from it.

When Funakoshi went to Japan to teach, he changed Pinan (an Okiwanwan word) to Heian (Japanese) and changed the cat stance to back stance to make it more difficult.  The Japanese felt that if something wasn't difficult, it wasn't worthwhile.  Also, Itosu taught the Pinan kata to school children, so the kata NEEDED to be more difficult for the Japanese to even consider them.

[Baylin]

It's nice to see the differences between our styles! If you don't mind what is the idea behind using cat stance rather back stance in the kata?

[bogirl]

And here is the Shu Do Kan version of Pinan Shodan.....Since Bogirl forgot to post it. In fact, it's ME doing it. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZH03wdOO6I

Well, I just didn't want to hog the whole thread...

Looking good!

[Gambatte Karate]

And here is the Shu Do Kan version of Pinan Shodan.....Since Bogirl forgot to post it. In fact, it's ME doing it. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZH03wdOO6I

[bogirl]

Well, I can give you the "scoop" on a couple:

Goju-ryu has very rooted, solid stances.  Shiko-dachi, no kiba-dachi.  Blocks are circular instead of linear, using the concept of turning the opponent.  Body strikes are off-center, targeting the heart or liver instead of the sternum.  Kicks are waist high or lower.  Think fighting on a narrow dock or boat, you must keep your balance and don't have much room to dodge or jump.  Traditionally only 12 kata.  The "wax on, wax off," and "painting the fence" moves from The Karate Kid are Goju-ryu.

Sh*to-ryu utilizes linear blocks and strikes and may allow higher kicks (some schools practice head kicks).  Many kata have light, quick dodging or jumping moves, even dropping to the ground.  One-legged crane stances are also in some kata.  Think out in a field or a large open space, with plenty of room to dodge, jump and run.  Most kata lists state 54 for this style.

Shotokan is also linear, but more rooted.  Where sh*to-ryu uses nekoashi-dachi (cat stance) Shotohan uses kokutsu-dachi (back stance).  The chamber (set up) for knifehand blocks is different from sh*to-ryu.  It's hard to describe the differences, so I'll show you the same kata done by the different styles.

Here is a comparison of the same kata:

sh*to-Ryu Pinan Shodan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc

Goju-ryu Heian Nidan: (Funagoshi renamed many kata from Okinawan to Japanese)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hc1NMdjU9U

Goju-ryu doesn't do Pinan/Heian kata, so here's a beginning kata from Goju-ryu:(notice the circular blocks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqg35Gr6gxc

The style I study, Shudokan, is somewhat eclectic, so we do some straight-line and some circular movements.  We parctice all 12 Goju-ryu kata at black belt, but most of our kata come from sh*to-ryu.