Sparring / Kumite

[NightOwl]

Matt never got burned here.

Hi Bluecrab:

If we gave the impression that this happened on our board I'm sorry as that was not my intention.  Gambatte said this happened on another board but since no one has heard from him in a while, he mentioned it here in the context of how folks treat each other here as opposed to other places.

My thought was that Matt might be reluctant to post because of what happened on the other board.  I hope I'm wrong.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Bluecrab]

Hi everybody,

Matt never got burned here. As far as I know, he just decided to stop posting for some reason. He's welcome back any time he wants to come back. We never took Matt to be a troll or any other type of troublemaker.

As for genuine trolls, they don't last long. We mods are happy to ban them after one warning for nonsense. 

Take care.

[NightOwl]

  Our resident Matt Blake was on another ma form I go to, and was called a troll....I stood up for him, and simply told eveyone to leave him alone. Then I got told I just didn't know him and blah blah blah.

I've been wondering why he's been so inactive. He hasn't signed in since November. I'm tending to think now, he got burned and is laying low and may be lurking.

The news does wake up the evil sergeant in me and make me wish I did have an unstoppable cyper flame fist . 

I'm glad you went to bat for him Gambatte. I've known Matt since the other board and have NEVER seen him start a flame war even when the unknowing criticized him.  I would guess the problem is that some folks get threatened when asked a simple question that cuts through the posturing. I can see Matt doing that and people responding with flames even if he didn't mean to start an argument. He would just want to Know.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Gambatte Karate]

LOL

Yeah, I have to agree. I think that what it is, is this forum has these things called "mature people" on it. It's weird. I'm definatly not used to it. LOL When we get trolls, we don't argue with them, we simpy take the wind out of their sail by saying things like "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree", or any other plethora of things we say to calm them. LOL

Speaking of trolls, Our resident Matt Blake was on another ma form I go to, and was called a troll....I stood up for him, and simply told eveyone to leave him alone. Then I got told I just didn't know him and blah blah blah. My response, then if he is a troll, let him troll....He will get bored and leave if he is a troll, as long as you don't FEED the troll. But, on the other hand, if he is NOT a troll (which I don't believe he is) then he will get useful information which he can use. Matt never tries to argue with anyone, he simp[ly asks questions. They are NORMAL questions to me, but eh....What do I know?

[NightOwl]

Except for this part of my post that is: Nightowl, you're SO wrong...You stink and you have been flying too high for too long. LOL I think the thin air is affecting your brain. You better see it MY way sir!    Just messin! 
 

Whatt!!!  Howw Dares you.   Here,  have a taste of my unbeatable flame fist you evil MMA type.  TMA rules even when we wear street shoes and use a Verticle Fist. Ha and if all else fails there is always pepper spray.   


Seriously though, I'm sorry that you are at odds with one of your Sensei over this. That is sad to me. It is after all, your path and not his.

One of the main reasons why I stay and learn here is because of the way the members treat each other. The trolls and flamers don't stick around long if they try and stay they either change their spots or the moderaters deal with them . One of the neatest things is that even kids can come, participate and learn here without issue. It IS pretty unique.


Sincerely, NightOwl

[Gambatte Karate]

This forum easily qualifies as the most respectful and well considered that I have seen on the internet.

As for sparring, you can never practice full force, because somebody's going to the hospital after class. The trick is to find the best medium that balances what everyone wants to get out of the training. Even light contact point sparring can teach you important skills, as long as you don't train specifically to do that, or hold any illusions that it prepares you for violence in any way.

And I'm sure that many people on this board have examples of where something from their training, that they'd never practiced on a person, suddenly popped out and was effective. Really, that's the purpose of kata/hyuung/forms. When practiced with the right intention and mindset, it's the best training you can have on your own. Pro athletes use "visualization" all the time.

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on the boards, so we don't need to discuss it much, but the TMA vs. MMA debate is kind of odd. Traditional arts always involved cross training. Funakoshi trained under different masters, and practiced Okinawan wrestling, which he thought was critical to fighting prowess. Kind of like the whole "standing game and ground game" in what we call MMA today. Hey, it's all the same thing: using the human body to destroy the human body.

Actually, in grappling, I go full speed, and full power. However, when we are allowing strikes while grappling, we strike full force to the body, and 50% to the face. However, it often goes much higher percentage to the face. LOL Usually on accident.

As for cross training, I agree. In days of old, it was common. Kanken Toyama trained with Funokoshi under Itosu. Both Funokoshi AND Toyama trained under others besides Itosu. (Toyama happens to be the one who started the style which I have the most experience in)

So am I wrong for wanting to train in BJJ? Or Muy Thai? Or boxing?

Am I wrong for teaching "MMA"? My instructor would have me think so. It is a major point of contention for us, and I fear I may never be testing for my 4th dan under him.  He has an "MMA" class.....but when I went to his school, and grappled his longest training student in that class (The student had been training in that class for 3 yrs or more) I easily submitted him. 30 seconds the first time, 1:30 the second, and 10 seconds the third. Of MY students, It takes me MUCH longer. It is not uncommon for me to grapple with my students for 30 minutes at a time and still neither of us obtains a submission. Sometimes, it's because I'm teaching, others it's because I'm simply trying to be a hard submission partner who isn't really fighting back....and others, I'm plain tired. LOL But....Even when I'm trying hard, my students can elude me for 4 or 5 minutes usually.

Sadly, students who train under him in his "MMA" class, will likely get hurt if they ever step foot into the ring. He contends that he doesn't train people to fight in the ring....... Then why have an "MMA" class?




Oh, and I agree, this is one of the MOST respectful boards out there....I think that has to do with our traditional backgrounds. 



Except for this part of my post that is: Nightowl, you're SO wrong...You stink and you have been flying too high for too long. LOL I think the thin air is affecting your brain. You better see it MY way sir!    Just messin! 

[Chihua-ku]

Well said, Brandon. And I agree with you 100%, this is the most respectful, thoughful MA forum out there. I don't even post in the other ones anymore.

[Brandon]

This forum easily qualifies as the most respectful and well considered that I have seen on the internet.

As for sparring, you can never practice full force, because somebody's going to the hospital after class. The trick is to find the best medium that balances what everyone wants to get out of the training. Even light contact point sparring can teach you important skills, as long as you don't train specifically to do that, or hold any illusions that it prepares you for violence in any way.

And I'm sure that many people on this board have examples of where something from their training, that they'd never practiced on a person, suddenly popped out and was effective. Really, that's the purpose of kata/hyuung/forms. When practiced with the right intention and mindset, it's the best training you can have on your own. Pro athletes use "visualization" all the time.

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on the boards, so we don't need to discuss it much, but the TMA vs. MMA debate is kind of odd. Traditional arts always involved cross training. Funakoshi trained under different masters, and practiced Okinawan wrestling, which he thought was critical to fighting prowess. Kind of like the whole "standing game and ground game" in what we call MMA today. Hey, it's all the same thing: using the human body to destroy the human body.

[NightOwl]

No offense  Brother:

We just disagree. As the saying goes "steel sharpens steel"

I really am rooting for and thinking of you.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Gambatte Karate]

Hello Nightowl and Chiuha-ku,
 I respect both of your opinions. They are your opinions, and you have reasons to believe in them. And, after 14 years of training in TMA, I can not say that I am STRICTLY a TMA guy or an MMA guy.  I know that while in the heat of battle, the most tenacious and confident person usually wins the fight. So as far as confidence, I have that already.....

Nightowl, before I delved myself into the MMA world, I was a total TMA guy. I felt that MMA was for roided up thugs who were out to simply beat other people up. Since dabbling in it though, I have found that it is not always just a bunch of roided up idiots looking to simply fight. In fact, most of the guys I have dealt with so far, have been decent stand up guys. (Rich Clementi, Din Thomas, and a few others to name a few)

I have also had my fair share of "real" situations. My wife and I were jumped before by about 15-20 guys. My wife had 3 guys holding her down while a female was punching her and hitting her with a purse. The rest of the guys were on top of me. The best place to be in a dog pile is the bottom. I survived the ordeal, and when the cops showed up, they went to arrest ME because everyone else was bruised and bloodied, and I had nothing wrong with me. The cops said I looked like the primary aggressor.  When there were so many of them? Really? Wow.....The neighbors came out and straightened the cops out, and the other guys went to jail for the night. However, I was told that the primary aggressor could have pressed charges on ME because I was hitting him wiht a Mag flashlight.  Apparently, the MAg lite was considered a "deadly weapon". 

I've been in a few other scrapes, but that one is the largest and most dramatic. It was also before I got into BJJ or anything remotely "MMA".

I agree that traditional martial arts have their place in todays society. Heck, I think it should be required learning in elementary school. Just like in China and Japan. But alas, that will likely never happen in MY lifetime.

I am not trying to say that MMA is the way. No, I just like to compete, and this gives me the opportunity to do just that in a semi controlled environment which is both legal, and somewhat safe.

I AM trying to say that without sparring, you can not apply the technique. The difference between theory and application, is repetition. If you practice a technique 10 times, and think you know it....You're wrong. If you practice it 100 times and think you know it, again, you're wrong. If you practice it 1000 times, and think you know it, you guessed it, you're wrong. Only when you have practiced it more times than you can remember, and can perform it against a resisting opponent, do you "know" it....and even then....it may not be solid.

Peace brother. May the Lord look upon you with all his love, and always keep you safe.

[Chihua-ku]

MA needs sparring practice.

And I side with the Owl on this one. Like I had said before: some things you can teach; some you just cannot. Bbefore I even thought of starting MA, I trained and coached tennis and I learned that despite all the training and techniques, the most gifted and promising junior will lose to a less skilled player if they do not have those qualities you cannot teach: like staying calm when the score gets close, do not giving up when you are behind and coming up with a change of strategy on the fly and improvise when what you are doing is not working (in other words, improvising a plan B). I cna teach or learn all the self defense skills in the world, but if I don't have those things you cannot just teach, I am toasted.

 There is a line in the kung fu movie Yip Man, in which after master Yip beat another kung fu master on a friendly sparring match, he tells him: "the problem is not within your art, is within you".

[NightOwl]

Hey Gambatte:

I know that this is the traditional argument for MMA above traditional arts and I do respect your opinion. Even so I disagree. I still believe that “traditional” arts and approaches even to those that do not use kumite at all have a place in today’s world.

Although 75% in this country have “trained” my question is how many of those people trained enough to put the reflexes and responses into their muscle memory as you have?

I once watched two “trained” men in the military go for each other, the kicks and punches were pathetic and little more than a brawl which was easily stopped.

 Recently, one of the nurses where I work went out with some friends. An acquaintance of one of them accompanied them and while at the pub this guy who was supposedly trained became verbally abusive and overbearing toward the nurse.  He thought he wanted to end the night with an “easy” conquest and she was not cooperating.
Later he offered her his hand for a hand shake and said “peace?” But when she took his hand to shake, he abused his training by forcing her to her knees in front of him.  The nurse who is NOT trained,  by instinct, hauled off with her left hand and landed a punch direct to the groin which dropped “Joe, I’ve been Trained” after which the  bouncers snickering between them, dragged his retching and wretched body out the door.

My grandmother and a family friend were entering their apartment complex after having dinner out. The family friend in his late fifties or early sixties at the time had learned jujitsu in the Canadian military during WW2.  As they entered the elevator a group of thugs attacked them.  Harry my grandmother’s friend, put her behind him in the elevator and though trapped, held his own against the thugs until another resident came on the scene and pulled a gun which sent the thugs out the door.

When I was younger, I was hitching home one night. When my ride ended I jumped from the back of the truck I was in and thanked the two men for the ride.  As I headed down the road one made for the side like he needed a restroom break and just as I passed him he rushed up behind me. I heard and felt him coming and ducked forward just in time to keep a double hammer blow off my neck and took it instead to the top of my  back up  at about T-1.  I only weighed 130 back then and the hit sent me down forward.  I was not training at the time either nor had I ever practiced rolls but I rolled forward with the momentum and came up facing the bad guys but without my glasses.  As I came up, I pulled my Nunchucks from the lining of my peacoat and said “Why’d you do that? I didn’t do anything to you.!!!??”  To this day, I tend to think that the guys thought I was pulling a sawed off because they both turned about 3 shades paler in the moonlight, jumped in their truck and left while I was left to essentially feel my way home without my glasses. - Some of the nurses where I worked at then went out the next day and found them for me.  (I was a white belt then)

All of the Sensei, Siphu and Sahboonim here I’m sure have stories they could tell of their students defending them selves in the “real” world. Just as the real world has many stories of the untrained defending themselves.  For me self defense is when attitude and preparation meet. The most dangerous weapon isn’t what you pick up or have in your hand but what you have between your ears and how you utilize it.  This is why the trained fail and the untrained succeed. I prefer traditional methods even those without kumite.  I can not afford an injury in training if I am to provide for my family nor do I enjoy or wish to injure others just for the sake of “realism.”

This is JMO but is part of my philosophy of life and who I am so I share it. Just as MMA is yours.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[Gambatte Karate]

I can't remember where I read it, but I once read that over 75% of American population has trained in some sort of martial art at one point in their life. Thats a pretty high percentage and also makes it highly likely that you will be attacked by someone who has some sort of training under their belt.

Do you REALLY think that you are going to be able to poke someone's eyes that easily? Or actually punch or hit them in the throat? Both of these are not reliable techniques as they can be easily foiled with just a little movement. I've been training for over 14 years now, and I STILL miss hitting sparring partners in the FACE, let alone their throat. And a groin strike? Please.....Get someone amped up on crack, and all you will do it irritate them into a bigger rage. Besides, the ability to tag someone in the groin is questionable at best when actually confronted.

A knee strike...Well, rather than trying to "Stomp the knee in", Why not try to put his patella into his thigh? This has two purposes...One, if you are successful, he'll never walk right again...period. And if you fail, you have the groin shot back up. (Assuming you go toward the inside. If you go to the outside, then yep...you're screwed.)

The difference between kata, and application is simple....practice. 99% of people don't put forth the time into practice of specific techniques to be able to use them.

I never said you "can't" drop someone with a single strike...I said it doesn't happen 90% of the time. Which means that you only have a 10% chance of success. or one in ten shots. Now, those odds are not something I want to play with.

I have done point sparring for over 14 years. For the last four years, I was the state champion in blackbelt point sparring for men over 30 with the Florida League of Martial Artists. I have done Karate (for the last 14 years), boxing, as well as BJJ and judo.  By far, the one I rely on the most in a real situation is my karate training. However, when I get my bell rung, I get into a boxers stance and I box with people until they try to take me down. Then I rely on my BJJ and Judo.

I used to think that MMA only trains you for a one on one opponent, while traditional martial arts trains you for multiples. Well...If you can't defend yourself against one, how are you going to handle more?

I have been training more and more in MMA. In fact, I've got a fight coming up in May up in Louisiana. I don't do it for the pride, or the recognition. I do it to measure my own training. Basically, is what I'm teaching, going to work in a real life situation? I feel that MMA is the only thing that we have currently that can test that legally.

If you look Ron VanClief and Royce Gracie, you will see how quickly someone wiht many many years of traditional martial arts, lost to someone in the ring. This opened up Sensei Van Clief's eyes a bit. Back when he stepped into the octagon, the eye strikes and knee strikes and groin strikes were legal...They didn't do him any good. The good thing about this bout was the RVC learned the error of his Traditional martial arts ways, and adapted and changed a bit.

[Rick]

I believe kata, combined with arranged sparring practice (bunkai), and makiwara/resistance training, are enough... to be able to deal with untrained goons who pick a fight, which is what traditional karate is designed to handle.

Where it all goes off the rails is when training to fight other karateka, or other trained fighters. Traditional kata do not teach that sort of thing. For example, no skilled fighter is going to leave his punch out long enough to put him in a joint lock with it. As soon as you get trained fighter vs trained fighter, it's a very different thing.

And I disagree that you can't drop a man with one strike. I've done it. You hit the eyes, throat, or groin, he'll drop. Stomp the knee in, he'll drop. Will a trained fighter drop? Probably not. But a goon? Yes, if you surprise him, and strike very hard, at a very sensitive area.

And you can only practice those techniques with kata, a cooperative partner, and a makiwara/sandbag.

[Gambatte Karate]

Wow...Somehow I missed this thread....But I'm here now.

Anyway, I said it before, I think that light to no contact sparring is counterproductive. If you are going at 50-75%, then you are going to get somewhat of a feel for HOW a person's body is going to REALLY react in a real situation. Going at it "point sparring" style, is just ludicrous, as one hit does not stop a person 90% of the time. It usually takes 4 or 5 or more hits to knock them out. Can it be done in one? Obviously it can....But to practice and spar that way, is silly IMO. At my school, we have started going more and more toward the MMA way of doing things. I have my students spar at about 75%. Yes, people get hit, and yes, they get black eyes and bloody noses. BUT, this is realism. If you can't suck it up in the dojo, where you KNOW you're safe and no-one is going to rape you or rob you blind, then what will you do in a real situation? I know people who are "blackbelts" who have 5+ years of training under their belts, and never ONCE had to spar. I actually feel sorry for those people. Because the belt will not protect them, even though they will undoubtedly say that they are a blackbelt. And they will end up getting their proverbial butts handed to them. My sincere hope is that they are good diplomats.