TSD = Karate Do?

[Chihua-ku]

I am neither a Tan So Doo guy or a Karate guy, but let me throw my two cents using a different analogy from linguistics (I am a trained anthropologist, after all). Spanish and Portuguese share the same root (Latin), are when written they are very similar. I am kind understand some Portuguese when written even if I don't know Portuguese. But the pronunciation is very different. And the grammar rules. Same between Norwegian and Swedish who share the same root (North Germanic) and probably can understand each other somehow but are not the same language due to separate linguistic evolution.   

Karate and TSD may share the same root from the same tree but due to the influence of the particular culture it was developed, they have evolved different. You might recognize some similarities on some of the techniques and stances but they are their own art.

My own style of kung fu, That Son Than Vo Dao, might trace its origins to China and the taoist monks from the White Lotus Society, but by virtue of centuries of being develop in Vietnam, and acculturated to the Vietnamese way, it is something different to your typical Chinese style, even if the principles are about the same.  I don't even think my own teacher would call "Than Vo Dao"  White Lotus or Fut Gar (Buddha's family fist) even though our style traces its origins to those other two.

And as martial arts are practiced and popularized and spread all over the USA and the world, far from their places of origin, they will keep adapting and incorporating the idiosyncracies of the cultures they are currently being practice. I am sure they will keep evolving (slowly, of course). But in life and nature everything has to continue evolving in order to survive. Martial arts cannot become static. 

And I know this is probably a different post, but look at it this way: some styles of kung fu have disappear  because they were only taught to a select few and masters kept secrets that they literally took to their graves. The communist in China tried to make kung fu disappear also. If not for masters who escaped to Hong Kong and then make their way to the USA, those arts would have die out too. It is our duty to continue teaching and sharing our martial arts to new generations.

[Gi]

I suppose now to a lay person it may be harder to tell the difference between the systems as undoubtedly TSD has many of it's roots in Karate but also Katrate styles have in recent years adopted the high kicks, spinning and jump kicks whilst they don't concentrate on them as much as TSD. Although the basic lower rank hyungs taught in TSD are also found in Shotokan etc if you look at how the arts were performed say 20 years ago they were clearly different systems with completety different ideas. I've always been led to belive that many of the basic hyungs found in Shotokan are more of a universal nature and go back further than Karate.

[ronin7411]

Having studied Tang Soo Do myself I believe that it can be compared to Karate because a lot of its maneuvers are borrowed from Shotokan and you can see these same movements during their forms but is it Japanese Karate no.

[Brandon]

Bogirl

I don't think nationality is really the issue. American practitioners may pronounce it "kurotty," but isn't it still the same art? You have a name pronounced differently, and technical differences, but that come from instructors being from different places and modifying the art for their own purposes, which happens within the same art.

TSD is a modification of Okinawan karate. I like the automotive metaphor, but I would say that Harley and Suzuki are like Tae Kwon Do and boxing, while Karate and TSD are more like Toyota and Lexus.

[NightOwl]

  Chuck Norris and others have essentially made Kenpo so Americanised that it is actually called American Kenpo.

   I can't believe I wrote this!!!  Thanks James, I did indeed mean Ed Parker.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[james4949]

Let me start by saying that Chuck Norris is a Tang Soo Do guy. I am thinking you might mean Ed Parker, who created American Kempo.
BlueCrab is right, the characters can translate. Hence, things like Ha Ki Do use the same characters as Aikido.
BlueCarb also touches on an interesting point. The Characters for Okinawan Karate Do before the turn of the century did translate into "way of the Chinese hand". Around the time that Funakoshi and others were introducing Okinawan karate to Japan (and Koreans), the use of the "China" character was "out of style". Funakoshi explains this in several books by saying that calling things "Chinese" was very fashionable in Okinawa during the 19th century. He goes on to day it is more accurate to use the character for "Empty". Funakoshi is the only source I have read up on regarding this change, but I do find it somewhat suspect that the character change occurs around the time that Okinawan karate is being exported to Japan.
While Whang Kee is often credited with creating TSD, it should be noted that there are a lot of the Kwan leaders that in some way associated their art with the name TSD. One thing is for certain, all of these Kwan leaders were trained in Okinawan Karate. Some were exposed to Funakoshi’s Shotokan others appear to have been exposed to other forms of Okinawan Karate like Shudokan.
Many people argue that the Japanese introduced Karate to Korea, the fact is, Okinawan Karate was being introduced to Japan during the occupation of Korea. They were exposed to it at the same time.
After, the Korean War, and things began to settle and progress politically, the South Korean Government made huge efforts to reestablish Korean culture. Part of this was to unify the Kwans and make them into something more, Korean. At this time, Korean Martial arts were being exported, but Kwan leaders not happy with the politics going on in Korea, and by US service men, like Chuck Norris. These people opened their own schools, and taught their art as it was. Some with the name TSD, or in some cases TKD, and in some cases as Karate. Meanwhile, back in Korea, Taekwondo was established as the “official art” and it has evolved into what it is today, a purely Korean art.
However, the  other schools that had left Korea, have remained for the most part, like that had been in the 1950’s and 60’s; and more closely related to Okinawan Karate, than anything Korean. Are there subtle stylistic differences; yes, that’s what makes them Korean. Are they more closely related to Okinawan Karate than modern taekwondo; yes. Could one call it Korean Karate, I would say yes.
Case in point, I have been doing TSD for most of my martial arts life time. When I have ventured into other styles I have assimilated far easier into an Okinawan Karate school than a modern Taekwondo school. TKD as we see it today is a much different art whereas what I have been doing is much closer to what is still being done in Okinawan styles.

[NightOwl]

Hi Bogirl:

I hate to say this but I'm not sure I agree with you here   

I DO agree that Tang Soo do is distinctly Korean just as Chuck Norris and others have essentially made Kenpo so Americanised that it is actually called American Kenpo.

  Even so,  they still have Japanese and albeit debatable for Kenpo, Chinese roots.  Even though some of the hard styles of Kung Fu are still known as Kung Fu the styles that have come to us and other countries through Japan seem to have garnered the name of "Karate" even though they now essentialy belong to the countries in which they are practiced.

As such I'm not sure that I would be adverse to calling them Karate even though  they are distinctive to the countries that they are practiced in. 

Sincerely NightOwl

[bogirl]

Brandon,

Karate-do is Japanese
Tang Soo Do is Korean

As both contain the word "way", but they are from different countries and use differnent techniques, I don't think it really is appropriate to call TSD Karate.

Like Harley and Suzuki, both are motorcycles, but you don't call one by the other's name.

[NightOwl]

Hi Bluecrab,

Thanks for the clarification I'm definitely going to have to repurchase that text.  I've had several instances where I've needed to look at it this year alone.

Sincerely, NightOwl

p.s. if I install the korean and chinese charactersets for windows. Will the characters that you illustrated in your message appear? - NightOwl

[Bluecrab]

Hi everybody,

Brandon is right in that Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters that mean "the way of the Chinese hand." Here are the characters:

唐手道

Chinese characters pronounced phonetically in Korean are called hanja. So, these three characters are the hanja for the way of the Chinese hand.

Chinese characters pronounced phonetically in Japanese are called kanji. The Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese characters that the Koreans pronounce tang soo do is kara te do.

Now, it happens that in kanji, the character 唐, which the Koreans pronounce tang, is pronounced kara. There is another Chinese character that is a homonym in kanji for 唐. It is 空. The basic meaning of this character in Chinese is empty. So, from this, we get empty hand - or kara te.

Kara te do in kanji: 空手道

If you have Funakoshi's Master Text (Karate-Do Kyohan), he explains the whole "Chinese" vs. "empty" issue on pp. 3-4. I'd type it in here, but I'm too tired tonight - it's a bit lengthy. 

I hope this helps... take care, everybody.

[NightOwl]

  Korean characters don't transfer in to Japanese

Actually I think that they might.  If I remember correctly Kanji and Hanji are essentially Chinese ideograms.   The ones to ask would probably be Alcatraz or Bluecrab.  Sanzinsoo would probably know too.


As for blanket self defense terms:   Karate when it was new here in the states was often called ju jitsu or judo because thats what people knew about.

At that time it was very hard for an occidental to find a sifu in kung fu.  I once knew the mother of a monkey styleist who was  featured in Black Belt in the 80's (I think) .  She told me the story of trying to find a Sifu for him because he was "only half chinese." Not that many outside the MA community even know that there are different styles of Kung Fu.

As people  become more educated they'll figure it out.

Sincerely, NightOwl

[galahad25]

Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the old characters for Karate meaning "Chinese Hand," but thanks to Funakoshi Karate is now "Empty Hand."

Brandon,
I'm not sure this is correct.  Korean characters don't transfer in to Japanese.  Plus Tang Soo Do means the Chinese hand way.  Tang from the Tang dynasty that the kung fu Hwang Kee learned in China and Soo Do are Korean words meaning empty hand way.  Hwang Kee named the art in Korean and I don't think he named it from an interpretation of the Japanese words for karate.
I don't take offense to people calling it karate.  I don't bother to learn the names of every American Indian tribe in American and call the people by their tribe.  I call them by the blanket term that non-Indians created, Indian American or Native American.

[Brandon]

Tang Soo Do is often referred to as "karate" or "Korean karate." In fact, my studio's name ends with "Academy of Karate." Most of the time, when Western TSD practitioners call what they do "karate," it seems that it's done because of the common trend to use "karate" as an umbrella term. But is it really a misuse of the terminology?



Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the old characters for Karate meaning "Chinese Hand," but thanks to Funakoshi Karate is now "Empty Hand."

TSD combined what Hwang Kee learned from an Okinawan or Japanese book with his limited experience in Chinese/Korean martial art.

Is Karate only to refer to the family of martial arts coming directly from Okinawa? What about Japanese Kyokushin Karate, then? The Okinawans combined indigenous techniques with ones from overseas, and that's Karate. Can that process be applied by anyone and still be Karate?

I'm not completely sure how I feel about the topic. Hearing TSD called karate grinds on me a bit, but is it really incorrect? I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on this.