Author Topic: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank  (Read 2880 times)

Offline Ricktdk

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 07:37:10 PM »
I am new to this site but I love the open aspect of everyone's opinions. I have seen all types of belt rankings and am often confused by them. My Grandmaster keeps to traditional colors: white, yellow, green, blue etc. When I see schools that have belts with multi colors (black belts with a center yellow stripe etc.) I have difficulty in knowing where those ranks fall in the more traditional color rankings.
2nd Dan Tae Kwon Do - 1st Dan Hap Ki Do
Instructor @ Universal Martial Arts under Grandmaster Ik Hwan Kim

Offline akherat

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 02:58:47 PM »
Not entirely sure, although I am fairly certain that the belt ranking system is a modern invention - used to be that a black belt was a black belt, whether you had been studying for 5 years or 50.  My understanding is that belts were never really meant to signify any particular kind of "rank", but were a means of organizing students so that instructors could keep track of who had been taught what (sort of).

KMA do have a history that goes way, way back, and the name they have for most of it is something like Taekeon (sp)?  There is also an ancient Korean wrestling art, but the name escapes me.  Hapkido is Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu in its initial form, with the more recent styles being the ones that have the dynamic offensive techniques included.

Historically, if you follow the patterns/lore, most martial arts went from China to Korea to Japan, but when Korea went Taoist most of their arts died out, with the exception of a blend of several styles that were taught to the Hwarang (the young, promising soldiers, not religious monks, and no, it's not Hwarang Do). Then the Japanese came and tried their hardest to eliminate what was left.  All of the Korean arts, with the exception of a couple of weapons, are now mostly of modern Japanese and Chinese origins.  Korean Kung Fu, or Ship Phal Ki (spelling?) I think is a derivative of Mantis (I can't remember whether it was Northern or Southern) and/or Long Fist (of which there are several variants).  TKD, as far as my reading has led me to believe, is Karate with a bit of Taekeon and a few other pieces tied in, and it's kicking heavy, because like the historical KMA book mentioned earlier in this thread, Korean generals (old and new) expected that their soldiers would be carrying a weapon.  It has, of course, evolved quite a bit since then.  Since TKD is only a part of my training, I'm not fully versed in all the techniques, but I do think that its effectiveness is underrated - largely because of the explosion of mcdojangs and the western belief that anyone speaking with an asian accent is some sort of zen shaolin chi master that can shoot shoryuken fireballs from their fist and kill with the evil eye.

I'd bet you my next paycheck that I could ask any one of the 50 soccer moms that drop their kid off at the dojang where I train if they knew what kukkiwon was, or korea hapkido federation, or if they knew if Master Kwon is/was certified, or even what martial art their child is studying, they wouldn't know.  It's so frustrating...but I digress.

Offline galahad25

  • Red Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 1083
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2008, 11:54:18 PM »
The number 4 in Chinese, Japanese and Korean is the same pronunciation as death in their respective languages.  I haven't found anything on the number 10 in Korea, but the number 9 is considered unlucky there.  Birthdays that end in 9 are considered bad luck and people will avoid getting married or moving on days that end in 9.
"Fear is the mind killer"

Offline Sahboonim

  • Black Belt 2nd
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2008, 02:41:01 PM »
You know I am almost gun shy to post on this subject after my last SNAFU  ::) but in Korea the written "4" strongly resembles the same character for "death". Not sure about the possibility that they sound the same as well.
"Become the rooster that drives away the wolf. Be an unpleasent victim." GM Kim

Offline Alcatraz

  • Global Moderator
  • Purple Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2008, 02:38:23 PM »
Howard,

If that's the case, when next your GM visits, let me know and I'll send over a £2 coin from old Blighty.
Speak Soon (John Clark)- 4th Dan

Kilmarnock Okinawan Karate Dojo (Scotland).

Offline Bluecrab

  • Global Moderator
  • Green Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2008, 12:46:27 PM »
In Japan the number four is considered unlucky, because the word for it "shi" sounds similar to the word for death.  Maybe Korea is the same?

Tracy, I believe that's correct, but I'm not sure.

The Sino-Korean (hanja) syllable for four is sa (hangul: 사; hanja: 四), and the same syllable seems to appear in many Korean phrases related to death.

The number two is considered a lucky number in Korea, but I don't know why. Every time the head of our kwan comes over from Daegu, his wife goes to a bank and gets a few two-dollar bills. She says they mean good luck in Korea.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Sahboonim

  • Black Belt 2nd
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2008, 04:08:35 AM »
RE: 10 in Korea...

Hi folks,
First, I was wrong about 10 being "unlucky" in Korea.
Second, I was actually pretty sure I knew who told me that.
Third, after contacting my instructor to ask about it...

I misunderstood what he was trying to say. Don't get me wrong, Grandmasters English is light years ahead of my Korean but what he was trying to do was emphasize the imortance of certain numbers as well as colors (didn't know that red was associated with death in Asia) and other things. What he was trying to tell me was that 10 is not popular. He may have actually used the word "unpopular" and I remembered wrong.

Lastly, sorry for the lengthy post and any confusion I created. Totally my bad. (On the old thread I would insert the smiley with the bag over its head hear LOL)
"Become the rooster that drives away the wolf. Be an unpleasent victim." GM Kim

Offline bogirl

  • Global Moderator
  • Black Belt 2nd
  • *****
  • Posts: 3427
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2008, 06:09:40 PM »
Interesting, I'd never heard that about 10 in Korea.

The number 4 is unlucky in Korea. I'm not sure why. I've been in many buildings in Korea that don't have a 4th floor, just as some old buildings in the US didn't have a 13th floor.

In Japan the number four is considered unlucky, because the word for it "shi" sounds similar to the word for death.  Maybe Korea is the same?
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid beholder a black eye."  Miss Piggy

Tracy

Offline Sahboonim

  • Black Belt 2nd
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2008, 03:27:00 PM »
Bluecrab,

I could be wrong RE: 10. I have wracking by battered brain trying to recall where I heard that.  ???
"Become the rooster that drives away the wolf. Be an unpleasent victim." GM Kim

Offline Bluecrab

  • Global Moderator
  • Green Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2008, 10:57:43 AM »
...As I understand it the number 10 is an unlucky number in Korea (akin to 13 here in the US)...
Interesting, I'd never heard that about 10 in Korea.

The number 4 is unlucky in Korea. I'm not sure why. I've been in many buildings in Korea that don't have a 4th floor, just as some old buildings in the US didn't have a 13th floor.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline Sahboonim

  • Black Belt 2nd
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 11:32:05 PM »
Hi folks. As I understand it the number 10 is an unlucky number in Korea (akin to 13 here in the US) and the number 9 as Stoneheart alluded to has special properties. Without going into a long thread check out:

www.tkdtutor.com

Click on "Taekwondo" on the left and then "Belt Ranks".

It is true that so many Korean masters studied Japanese martial arts. I think is is overly simplistic to equate that fact to concluding that Tae Kwon Do is just Shotokan. I base this opinion on my own experience and observation having a Sho-dan in Shotokan. The theory, kicking, and chambering are very different. That being said and also having a Ni-dan in sh*to-ryu, a block is a block...a kick is a kick...a punch is a punch. All martial share similarities.

Korean martial history is thousands of years old though as Bluecrab mentions the Japanese destroyed so much of Korea's history durring their occupation. Ancient relief carvings show warriors with a strong open hand and a clenched fist with no other arms. It is a shame that all that knowledge is probably lost to the ages with only allusions to it in Chinese and Japanese writing.

The thing that drew me to Tae Kwon Do in the late 1970's was that it was billed as "modern martial art". The low and slow stances of some arts that were developed to produce stability to absorb an attack and to generate enough force from a blow to injure an armored opponent were replaced by a more upright and mobile art since so few people were walking around wearing bamboo armor in the 20th century.

I guess I should end this tirade LOL. Pilsung! 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 12:01:30 AM by Sahboonim »
"Become the rooster that drives away the wolf. Be an unpleasent victim." GM Kim

Offline tkd

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2008, 09:50:32 PM »
just got my 4th gup. so cool.

Offline Bluecrab

  • Global Moderator
  • Green Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 10:40:49 AM »
Hi, SG7,

I was being a wise guy... TKD comes directly from Karate, mostly Shotokan. Hapkido comes from some form of Aikijujutsu, also from Japan.

It's just that a fair number of Koreans have always refused to acknowledge these facts, and have created false histories about these arts.

There is not much reliable history of Korean martial arts before about 1750. in 1790 two generals compiled a martial arts manual at the request of the Korean king. The manual, the Muye Dobo Tongji (Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts) describes and illustrates 24 fighting methods. Only one is an unarmed method, called Kwon Beop (권법, or 拳法 in Hanja). It seems clear that this unarmed combat method comes from a Chinese style, probably Long Fist.

The unfortunate truth is that the Japanese, during their occupation of Korea from 1910 to 1945, destroyed virtually all of whatever written history of Korean martial arts that might have existed. A few Korean historians have been working to reconstruct Korea's martial history, but the research I'm aware of (which isn't much) has so far focused on armed methods used in military campaigns.

Most unarmed Korean styles that exist today, especially TKD and Hapkido, trace their source to one Japanese art or another.
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)

Offline supergroup7

  • Purple Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 843
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 08:53:08 AM »
I'm sure that the Korean Martial Arts do come from antiquity, and 2000 years of history.  Martial Arts is a blend of many concepts, and skills.

It's just that Wikipedia mentioned that General Choi did study Shotokan at some point in his life.
Just doin' my best.

Offline Bluecrab

  • Global Moderator
  • Green Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
Re: 9 Gup 9 Dan system of rank
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 02:40:43 PM »
So the rank system came in before WW2, Bluecrab, but, you are right, it was inspired by Judo.

Hi SG7,

Yes, you're right... I should have been more clear. What I meant was that the Korean arts adopted it after WW2.

btw... shhhh about any Koreans having studied Shotokan... TKD is 2000 years old and was passed down by the hwarang and monks who lived in caves.  ;D
"The Korean founder, Mr. Choi Yong Sul, said, 'When you are forty, you can get to know the primary skills.' This expresses how difficult hapkido training is." (http://jungkikwan.com)