Sport and Self Defence.

[Rickster]

Oh, so are we some kind of dancing clowns?  DO we all run out of a car and fall over on each other for your amusement?  Do I look like a clown to you?
-Joe Pesci Pigeon

Well, I dont know or care what you look like. The issue isnt personal. This is a conversation, and with many I enjoy, I find it amusing. Amusing is not meant to be condenscending, it simply means, for me, enjoyment

[galahad25]

Oh, so are we some kind of dancing clowns?  DO we all run out of a car and fall over on each other for your amusement?  Do I look like a clown to you?
-Joe Pesci Pigeon

[Rickster]

So what's you point? Oh and glad I amuse you.

Point? Does there have to be a point? Or just endless rhetorical discussion.

You are not the only one who amuses me 

[Gi]

So what's you point? Oh and glad I amuse you.

[Rickster]

I like it that people "worked doors" and these are bar brawls. I have been in the thick of slum fighting where the skin on skin ended quickly when shots rang out.

Also, aint nothing like someone putting a gun to a friend or girl friend's head, either who have not trained, and this person tells you what to do or else.

All of that door working or sport training went out the window.

[Gi]

Chihua - I agree with you statement that "Brain wins" sometimes even when other things are not equal aswell.


Alcatraz - I worked doors too in what was once know as a "fighting town" there was nothing else to do apart from get drunk and fight. The locals where famous for having seen off coach loads of football supporters and every door team that tried to work here untill my firm was established. When I first started there were at least 5 or 6 fights a night which if you didn't get involved in straight in instantly would escalate (I'm sure you've been there too). I got involved when there were 2 and when there were 22.

I am if nothing else a Traditional Martial Artist. I've seen boxers and full contact fighters banged out, in fact one of the boxers would not work unless it was with me. I think a some of the boxers and kickboxers while they had their strenghts, lacked imagination.

[Rickster]

With the greatest of respect, that is a very naive statement to make.

Yes, he who thinks about what they are doing will do well, but unless they have technique and experience, then the cerebral context is moot.

I make no bones about the fact that, as a sport, I am very much pro-MMA.

I am also pro common sense, and I can see no argument which will sway my opinion that if two people have equal training, and one trains in full contact methods, and the other does not, then regardless of which one trains for sport, and which one trains for artsake, or self-defence/protection, the one who trains full-contact is always going to have an advantage over the other.

With return respect, when you use the word equal, then separate two subjects and place one above the other, then it really wasn't equal to begin with.

With further respect, no matter what you train, if you dont use your brain in reality self defense, you are going to get killed.

[Alcatraz]

All things being equal-the brain wins. Not technique.

With the greatest of respect, that is a very naive statement to make.

Yes, he who thinks about what they are doing will do well, but unless they have technique and experience, then the cerebral context is moot.

I make no bones about the fact that, as a sport, I am very much pro-MMA.

I am also pro common sense, and I can see no argument which will sway my opinion that if two people have equal training, and one trains in full contact methods, and the other does not, then regardless of which one trains for sport, and which one trains for artsake, or self-defence/protection, the one who trains full-contact is always going to have an advantage over the other.

[Rickster]

I would add that in a confrontation, the advantage goes to the guy who have advanced techniques. Yes, they take longer to train and develop, but with everything else being equal, advanced technique wins. Also, "force" plays a big role, but I believe more when they are evenly matched. Whether is an MMA or a TMA person, superior technique and force wins more confrontations.

All things being equal-the brain wins. Not technique. Based upon the mass population that are not practicing martial arts or non martial artists, I think they fair well and continue to do so.

I didnt see my parents, siblings, the vast other relations and friends, take up martial arts to aid in self defense.

[Chihua-ku]

I would add that in a confrontation, the advantage goes to the guy who have advanced techniques. Yes, they take longer to train and develop, but with everything else being equal, advanced technique wins. Also, "force" plays a big role, but I believe more when they are evenly matched. Whether is an MMA or a TMA person, superior technique and force wins more confrontations.

[Rickster]

Sounds like someone is too "Pro MMA". Grant it you based your observation upon your involvement. "Working the doors" is not a criteria to view self defense in a large reality of situations. I had observed MMA fair well in brawls. If i want a bar bouncer, I'll get the biggest and perhaps MMA guy. However-from my observations, I dont care what martial art someone practices, if they dont train in reality self defense, they will not fair well.

[Alcatraz]

Yes, self-defence is situational, but by it's very nature, MMA skills, and mindset from an average exponent are more likely to be able to survive a violent confrontation.

Rickster, do you TRUELY believe that two martial artists, one which trains in full-contact methods, the other who does drills at semi-contact level at best, that the second one is going to come out better.

Not a chance. When working the doors, i saw a lot of guys try to do the job from TMA's which did not employ any heavy to full contact in their training. the frst time it kicked off and they took a smack, they froze.

We also had a guy who represented Scotland at the Commonwealth Games for boxing work with us, and the first time somebody smacked him, he smiled and decked the guy.

The guy had only ever trained in a sporting format (Boxing), yet he dealt with the situation better than the ITF TKD, Shotokan, and Lau-Gar boys who thought that their MA of choice had given them all the required tools to deal with a violent confrontation, but when push came to shove (literally) they fell apart at the seams.

[Rickster]

Gi,

Let's take a hypothetical situation, and look at two arts which I respect, but which are at opposite ends of the Martial Art spectrum.

You have Mr Smith who has decided that he wants to learn Martial Arts for Self-Defence and joins a Shokokai Karate class.

You have Mr Jones who has decided that he would like to train to fight under a full-contact sporting system such as MMA.

Now let's say that Mr Jones and Mr Smith are the same age, and, provisionaly the same fitness level. They both put the same hours into their training.

If both Mr Smith and Mr Jones were attacked, I would bet 12 to the dozen that Mr Jones would be more likely to survive a violent confrontation than Mr Smith, despite the fact that Mr Jones was only training for a sport, due to the fact that whilst Mr Smith may have had some excellent teachings, and tried out various drills such as Kata Oyo, etc, Mr Jones has probably (having seen a lot of Karate Dojo and MMA gyms over the years) had more experience of actual full-contact training.

Now that's not meant to disrespect Shukokai, as my own background is in Shukokai, but it is an observation that most average Martial Art classes, despite protestations to the contrary, do not train in realistic and practical self-defence, and whilst I would never advocate the training of a sporting system to substitute proper self defence/protection training, it is MY opinion that your average Martial Arts athlete is going to be better prepared in a violent situation than your average Karate-ka or TKD stylist. And I say that as a Karate-ka of 33 years experience and a Yondan to boot.

Also, I have met very few Martial arts teachers over the years who have been involved in a live violent scenario, and I'm sorry to say that many of them who have claimed X ammount of fights are, I'm sorry to say, 9 time out of 10, BS'ing.

If pressed on recollection, they seem to have a very clear memory of the event, when in actual fact, after a violent confontration memories are fragmented.

I once met (another anecdote), who claimed to have fought off four attacker outside a nightclub once.

First of all, the noghtclub he named was the one I was Security Manager of, and I had no memory of the altercation, and second, he could describe technique for technique every moment of that confrontation, and how he would plan his next 5 or 6 techniques as in chess.

I don't know if you've ever seen Top Gun but...cough  'Bull sh*t' cough.



Ex SAS soldier and writer, Chris Ryan write that in a FUBAR situation where reation takes over from planning, he could only think three steps ahead, and he was trained to operate in one of the most elite Special Forces units in the World.

Your average Sesei/Sifu X has never had anywhere near that type of training.

MMA, like many other martial art "clubs"-do not practice self defense in any practical manner. Self defense is not "only" about throwing someone down.

BTW, I had seen a guy who practice MMA, get stabbed. So much for Mr Jones

You cant justify or under credit either in realistic self defense because self defense is situational.

This is like trying to predict how you, your passengers, and your car would do in a accident.

[Gi]

Alcartaz,

I can only speak about my own experience. I don't know about Shokokai. My primary Art was learnt in Direct contact with the highest ranking person still alive and teaching the Art, he has far too many real experiences to even start thinking about listing, in his day I would not even dream about looking at him the wrong way, and now I wouldn't out of respect. I know a lot of boxers, full contact kickboxers and a few MMAs and I know who I'd rather fight. OK I'm not talking average Martial Artists but Martial Arts shouldn't be average. I would have thought that most of us have full contact experience and have been in real fights, it's up to us to do the extra stuff to make it real. I think that a good TMAs who trains hard with all the other things as well i.e. Weights, big bag and contact can sometimes throw something else into the mix. I do agree you need real fighting experience.

[Alcatraz]

Gi,

Let's take a hypothetical situation, and look at two arts which I respect, but which are at opposite ends of the Martial Art spectrum.

You have Mr Smith who has decided that he wants to learn Martial Arts for Self-Defence and joins a Shokokai Karate class.

You have Mr Jones who has decided that he would like to train to fight under a full-contact sporting system such as MMA.

Now let's say that Mr Jones and Mr Smith are the same age, and, provisionaly the same fitness level. They both put the same hours into their training.

If both Mr Smith and Mr Jones were attacked, I would bet 12 to the dozen that Mr Jones would be more likely to survive a violent confrontation than Mr Smith, despite the fact that Mr Jones was only training for a sport, due to the fact that whilst Mr Smith may have had some excellent teachings, and tried out various drills such as Kata Oyo, etc, Mr Jones has probably (having seen a lot of Karate Dojo and MMA gyms over the years) had more experience of actual full-contact training.

Now that's not meant to disrespect Shukokai, as my own background is in Shukokai, but it is an observation that most average Martial Art classes, despite protestations to the contrary, do not train in realistic and practical self-defence, and whilst I would never advocate the training of a sporting system to substitute proper self defence/protection training, it is MY opinion that your average Martial Arts athlete is going to be better prepared in a violent situation than your average Karate-ka or TKD stylist. And I say that as a Karate-ka of 33 years experience and a Yondan to boot.

Also, I have met very few Martial arts teachers over the years who have been involved in a live violent scenario, and I'm sorry to say that many of them who have claimed X ammount of fights are, I'm sorry to say, 9 time out of 10, BS'ing.

If pressed on recollection, they seem to have a very clear memory of the event, when in actual fact, after a violent confontration memories are fragmented.

I once met (another anecdote), who claimed to have fought off four attacker outside a nightclub once.

First of all, the noghtclub he named was the one I was Security Manager of, and I had no memory of the altercation, and second, he could describe technique for technique every moment of that confrontation, and how he would plan his next 5 or 6 techniques as in chess.

I don't know if you've ever seen Top Gun but...cough  'Bull sh*t' cough.



Ex SAS soldier and writer, Chris Ryan write that in a FUBAR situation where reation takes over from planning, he could only think three steps ahead, and he was trained to operate in one of the most elite Special Forces units in the World.

Your average Sesei/Sifu X has never had anywhere near that type of training.